If MDW does come to club soccer you will easily find her team at a multi-field complex. They will be the strongest and tallest team on the field. Tough to get the "better be big to compete in the Big 10 (with an exception for 1-2 speed merchants that can be smaller)" off the brain.
If I were to take a clubs style/philosophy out of MN club soccer and place it at the UofM I would like it to be MU's. their teams play the best possession with a purpose soccer across age groups. What they lack is enough depth athletically at many age groups. (I have no kid there)
Why would I ID myself? So you can do what? Type in capital letters and tell me i'm wrong? That is my opinion and many other clubs opinions of MU. Rev MTA St. Croix are all better at technical soccer than MU teams.
I'm amazed at the the discussions that are going on with the potential candidates for the position at the U. I'm not positive but I'm sure some of the names thrown out were candidates previously. Almost 98% of Division 1 jobs require college experience to include recruiting college student-athletes specially for a Big Ten school. I think there is an assistant coach at Louisville that could meet all requirements and don't forget the new U AD had a former national team player, Tiffany Roberts, coaching at VCU. Should be interesting this close to season
7:22 what are you talking about. Are you reading a job description or speculating on what you think? I thought so. Remember this is a University that pays millions to basketball and football coaches who loose more games than the twins in a season...well not that many.
8:54 If you'd been a GA or asst you'd know that the template for Div I soccer coach is practically a template for all schools.
8:35 He has to be in top 5 with solid recruiting knowledge in Midwest. Not sure if Maturi is hiring would he hire a former assistant. New AD definitely would get a lot of respect for such a choice
I have not watched MUs 14s. That said, long passes to a target player (feet or ideally into space where they can run onto it cleanly) is not kickball. Easiest way to tell the difference is to see if the defender or mid has their head up picking out a target or if head is down when they approach the ball.
I see lots of teams that do not "boot it long" but they play passes without looking up.. They run "set plays" down the field. In my opinion this is just as bad as kicking long to the corner flag. Very predictable for the defense and no decisions made on the ball to take advantage of better options.
A team that plays almost exclusively short passes is just as inept as a team that kicks long and blindly to corner flags. The well coached teams make decisions to maximize oppty wether it be long, short, or attack 1:1 when on the ball.
I would say teams who try and move the ball and control the game will be better off long term than the teams who kick and chase. Those teams that try and control the play and possess the ball may not be winning now, but will be better soccer players in the future. MTA (and others) love the big girl who can run and it doesn't really matter if she has skills or not. That way they can get away with a lot without coaching. Japan bean USA because of skill and style, not pure strength and brute force.
I agree with 9:15, Nels Dokkens team is awesome on the possession game. They control the ball better than any other team at that age. That will def help in the big picture.
the posts on this board are amazing...10:08 is talking about a u13 team in MN and using words like 'awesome', 'better than anyone'. You folks need to get out more. they are a nice team but lets get through state cup first before crowning them the next team usa
I kind of agree with what you're saying 11:01, but anyone who understands the nature of soccer understands that the best team isn't always going to win. It's always bothered me that many people here seem to judge a team based only on their performance at State Cup.
10:08 trying to bring it back to the Rev 13's. Let's not bring that subject back till next week when you simply won't be able to help yourself. I'm sick of hearing about the 13's. Leave it alone!
You are most certainly the rev 13's number 1 fan, you most certainly do not know much about soccer beyond U13 rev.
Guessing bored grandparent or parent who's oldest or only child is on the team. Please go watch some high level soccer before posting again.
Being "awesome at the possession game" as you state exposes you. It is the equivalent of stating they are the best at keep away. It takes possession with purpose to score. The rev 13s to posses well but they often go no where with it in a dangerous way. The purpose of possessing the ball (until late in the game when winning) is to score goals. Better to be on the wrong side of possession and the right side of the score board. Ask barca and bayern.
MTA is the best u13 team I have ever seen. They are so big and powerful. I would put them up against any u14 or u15 team for that matter and they would do well. A couple of these girls will be Olympic bound very soon.
OMG! U13 girls Olympic bound? Dude, seriously? They might get beat by Rev at State. At 13 how can you possibly tell anyway? I've seen them play and the players aren't much different than any others. They have a GREAT coach who drives them to work hard. End of story. They are competing at U14 Premiere. Impressive. We will have to see how the season plays out. BTW, bigger teams will physically crush them if they play them that way.
That is the point... if the can possess the ball at 13, they can learn how to translate that into goals as they get older. THAT is the point, whether they win or not. Unlike these other teams who just play to win now. Not saying the REV girls are less talented, but they will be able to win by playing soccer without relying on having all the best athletes like MTA does. That takes patience and coaching. How else can you compete when MTA steals all the athletes? Team play!!! (MTA has some good coaches too)Technical and tactical over size and athleticism.
Go to the 13 final. You will see two teams with some of the best athletes in the state at age group. You will see little in the way of a strong possession game from either side as both teams will be under more pressure than they typically compete against.
It will be mostly physical with some possession for both teams not the other way around.
I disagree that learning a possession game (without purpose) when not under pressure most games at 13 does not translate into goals later. Watch the passes made and the alternatives not taken and then decide. Of the list below you see the last two selected when options higher up the list are "on" more often than not and people believe because they retained possession the right choice was made.
Stolen but I like it (Player subconscious priority list before the ball arrives)
- Can I shoot - Can I pass to an open shot - Can I attack to shoot - Can I pass forward - Can I dribble forward to take the defense out of shape - Can I switch the field with a pass - Can I slice across looking for a pass - Can I retain possession with a support pass - Can I dribble back away from pressure
How often do you hear this...... Statement #1 "Gee, the girls really looked great today! Passing and possession was amazing..!!!"
Statement #2 "Dang, the girls were really off today, kept losing the ball and were out of sync...."
Statement #1 - usually commented after playing a weaker team that lacked both overall skill and athleticsm. Not a lot of pressure on the ball and could pretty much do what they wanted to.
Statement #2 - usually commented after playing an equal or superior team. Oposition pressure on the ball resulted in lost composure, hurried and errant passes. Other team was just as skilled and possessions was split.
I've seen lots of U13-U15 MN teams that play like Statement #1 in State Cup and then play like Statement #2 at regionals/ECNL/MRL Premier, etc...
I would like to see the U13 girls against the Gophers I think it would be a close game...MTA u13 is so good!!! They will not lose another game all year.
I'm REALLY looking forward to the U13G final. I saw the Rev girls play last fall and, as I told people then, they are the strongest MN U13G team I've seen at the age group in recent years. Our 13s are no pushovers, and we're gearing up to make it a battle.
Regardless of which team ends up representing MN in MI this summer, IMO and weather permitting, this will be one of the most entertaining and well-balanced U13G's finals in a long, long time - contested between two teams that are coached to play the game with long-term player development in mind. These are clearly the top two U13G teams in the state at this time, and either team would represent the state well at Regionals.
There's a lot of hype from people here on this blog, but I know I speak for all the coaches, and for the majority of the parents involved, when I say all of this crap should be kept from the girls, and we should ALL be excited to sit back and watch them enjoy the challenge of the day.
Hey! Congrats to the Admin for requiring user names. Now you can be tracked by the admin should you spew trash!
A combo pack of MA's post and the requirement to have a user ID should help improve the quality of the discussion on here. Hopefully those out there that like to discuss youth soccer and soccer in general will stick around and the noise will be gone....
@524 - 458, nice post, additionally to your excellent points, what I see so many trainers and coaches missing in the development of players is what takes place over 90% of the game, and that is how a player plays off the ball.
Off the ball movement in the attack - making smart, unselfish runs to move opponents to create new space for your teammates to attack into.
Parents - everyone watches what is going on around the ball but not what the rest of the team is doing off it to support, provide coverage or balance.
MA- great positive post and the subtle self-deprecating humor made my day.
TomASS, I should have taken the Dim Wit moniker a post earlier as I am 524-458.....Cheers and agree with your thoughts. The offensive players off the ball can make the player on the ball look very good or very bad based on their actions.
Dim Wit, I agree with a lot of what you said in your 458 post.
What I disagree with is the thought that the U13G final will be more physical than anything else.
Our team is not a physical team. After watching Rev play in last fall (albeit only one game), I wouldn't classify them as a physical team either. There will be some strong athletes on both sides, that's for sure, but you'll see more than a fair share of smaller, intelligent, more technical players - and, IMO, there will be the attempt from both teams to play attractive and effective soccer.
I've been wrong 2 or 3 times in the past, but this is my guess as to what we'll see in the final... again, weather permitting.
MA, I have been wrong more than you! By physical I did not mean "Brute ball" per se. I meant physical capabilities/athleticism would be leveraged on the ball (speed, quickness, strength, agility) by players in this game much more than connecting 5-6 passes to get down the field. The pressure both from the opponents defensive speed to the ball and the "big game" will limit the amount of attractive soccer both these teams typically display in my view.
Hope I am wrong, would love to see both teams put on a display of the beautiful game!
Quick question for folks here (because I don't know where else to ask)
I have a skilled U16 player who isn't playing club ball this spring (time, politics, cost, etc.) but would still like to guest at USA Cup or other local tournaments.
Is there any way for a free-agent to obtain a player pass from a governing body in order to be able to guest?
@Blasher - I know it can be a fun enjoyable experience since my daughter did it some time ago. However she was playing for a team that did not attend, but she had a players pass and just registered through the tourney web site
I hate to say it but the best answer would come from you calling the MYSA offices to check on all the rules and regulations that go on with the soccer bureaucracy of our state
Man, this is a hyped up game - we may have to make the trip to watch! Mark, are you going to be a spectator or are you helping Kaasa coach? We know you have been helping a little bit with the training and coached a few times, but just wondering about this state cup game.
Outspoken, I'm the team's assistant coach and involved as my time allows. Definitely planning on helping at the final. It's going to be a fun game to watch.
blasher - MYSA would be the best bet since they match up players with teams. My daughter guest played in several USA Cups, always having a great opportunity, and even winning the championship as a guest player. Does she have a player pass for any league? If not, that can be arranged (my son guest played as well, and had to obtain a special pass because of some US Club vs. US Youth soccer conflicts with MYSA). My best advice is to ask first and get the answer in writing. I almost lost my daughter's ECNL eligibility for believing something that wasn't in writing - I will never make that mistake again. Good luck, and I would be happy to talk more in general. It sounds like you are experiencing some things that I lived through with my daughter, and I would be glad to share my insights.
Even though some people choose to register and post under their own names, I'm all for the Anon postings. Frees people from fear, shame, and consequences, that's for sure, but we then get true thoughts and feelings, malicious as they may be at times. I know this was eye-opening and helpful to me, when through this blog over the years I found out that, contrary to my world view at the time, I wasn't the most-loved and respected coach in Minnesota soccer history. :)
MA - that is just good old fashion MN Nice better known as passive aggressive behavior. I'm a native who lived away for over 15 years so I can say that.
They still can take a bogus name and post it without being known. Taking a moniker just makes associating statements with a moniker easier to follow and converse with
tomASS, I didn't follow you there. Were you saying I was my post was MN Nice? Maybe it was to some extent (I had to look up the definition of that actually), but I'm far beyond feeling any need to be passive aggressive when it comes to youth soccer in this state.
I fully agree that the main point of taking a monicker is for tracking conversations. Most people would still be Anons even with monickers, but my point is/was that I LIKE it when Anons post, regardless of monicker, for the reasons stated. We all then get uncensored comments, and those comments speak more truth than ones typed with outright fear of consequence or repercussion. People are clearly passionate about their youth soccer choices across the board and that breeds hostility, but for all the negativity associated with blogs like this, it is the one place that people have made their feelings clear. Sure, some people use the blog with divisive intent, but if we all agree that perception drives reality in many cases, there is also a lot of truth in these threads.
Sorry MA - not directed at you but most MN soccer parents who post here. You have been, as far as I know very up front regarding the truths as you see and live them.
We are on the same page - I just disliked all the posts with Anon's since it so hard to follow who is saying what.
The way it is set up now should not prevent uncensored comments but it seems like it has or the posters are just too lazy to make a few additional keystrokes, though you wouldn't think so by their comments.
Thank you for the helpful input about obtaining appropriate reg for guesting. I have a note out to MYSA and to USA Cup as to what they will recognize. I am familiar with the MYSA organizational structure and options for finding an affiliate club/team. Was just hoping there was some other way for a 'free agent'. Just tired of all the club stuff, organizational politics, positioning, rabid parents in search of college scholarship (rabid parents in general), etc. Skilled kid just wants to to be able to play and recreational level just isn't appropriate.
Thanks again.
I will say one thing about blocking the anons....the signal to noise ratio has improved dramatically. I don't know that I could have asked this question and received thoughtful answers if anons were allowed. If I were the sysop for this site, I would suggest a dedicated anon board where people can flame each other, etc. and leave the others with registration.
Blasher, I appreciate your frustration, but, with all due respect, if your daughter is skilled, perhaps you need to get beyond the politics. I put up with it for years, to include all of the above you mentioned and more (admittedly, me being part of the problem in some situations). If it is her passion, you may need to suck it up and get her on a team where she can excel. Believe me, if it were up to me, I would have pulled my daughter from MTA years ago, but the bottom line is that SHE wanted to play there. Just a thought, but I wanted to share. The rabid parents in search of a scholarship are sometimes attempting to do what they can for their kids, because, God knows, at least in my case, grades alone were getting their daughter nowhere. She will be playing D-1, without soccer, her offers so far have been Wartburg, Carrol College, etc. Again, no disrespect but something to consider...
blahser, hope your daughter finds a way to take part in USA Cup. Some of my best youth soccer memories come from participating in that event in the mid to late 80s.
Man, making people create usernames has really toned the blog down. MNF, what is the next step? Do you keep it like this and no one will post or do you give people one more chance to behave?
Opinions are good, name calling and threats are not.
Example: 12:46 PM do you want to meet somewhere to discuss further?
Good luck to all teams this weekend. May good soccer be played. Unfortunately I will be out of town for the games. Would appreciate a post game synopsis of the finals.
Special shout out to EP, sending 3 teams to regionals this year. Per my new handle, I follow the high school game closely and this time of year I watch for the club teams with the highest concentration of H.S. players playing club ball together. I expect EPHS to be a force again next year with over 10 of their players on this fall's roster heading to regionals.
I'm also going to be watching Prior Lake's U15 @ regionals, as they also have a high concentration of H.S. players. Still a young team, but I am looking for PLHS to be a possible sleeper this fall (2AA will be the section of death again this fall).
Good luck to all at Regionals.
P.S. -- Not to rub it in, but zero teams going to regionals from MTA this year ... would have thought at least one of MTA's non-ECNL teams would have been going.
MTA coaching has finally been exposed. They actually have to coach these kids who may not be the top talent in the state. Even the U13 team lost with a consolidated group of "top" talent. Some of the foreign coaches are out performing them where it counts. I heard that the club even has a parent coach at U14. What a bunch of crap for a club that is so arrogant. No wonder they haven't won a game this year in league.
It would be interesting this year to see each of the state cup winners matched up to each of MTA’s ECNL teams. Maybe MTA can start a new tradition hosting the “MTA Friendlies” for each of the state cup winners to scrimmage against MTA’s ECNL U14-U18 teams before regionals.
I suspect MTA would still dominate, but only one way to know for sure. Great PR opp as well for MTA to prove if they are still the best game in town.
Jason, last I checked Nels Dokken is a US citizen....also not sure why you need to point out foreign coaches versus domestic. A good coach is a good coach regardless of their passport. Furthermore, there has been little consolidation of top talent at U13. Some of the best players are spread across 4-5 teams currently..
I, and most, would agree there are several strong coaches at each age group outside MTA and a few who are better at each age group. Nobody has claimed MTA has all the best coaches.
U17 ECNL team beat the Chicago Eclipse, number one team in the nation today. MN has a lot of talent - other than the current U18s, the problem has always been a lack of commitment (in my opinion). We DO have talent in the state. I watched a U15 PL vs. Tonka match on Friday, and the overall level of play compared to a few years ago when my daughter was that age is amazing. We need good coaches at the U 10, 11, 12 ages to inspire these girls!!!!
Dim Wit, I couldn't tell from your 6:26pm post if you saw the 13G final, or heard it went to PKs.
I stick to my last week's claim that this game had the most collective talent on the field between the two teams than any other U13G State Cup final to date, and I think that at times, both teams played some very attractive soccer.
With the wind at their backs, Rev took it to our girls for the first 25 minutes. It was a very uninspired performance by MTA, and I think we literally made it into Rev's half of the field 2 or 3 times. It was bad enough that I asked the 4th official if I could throw another ball on the field so our girls could play a bit.
Rev's territory dominance led to a number of CKs, but minimal real direct threat at goal.
To the MTA girls' credit, they finally started to muster up a fight, and looked more dangerous the last 10 minutes of the half, creating the two best chance at goal of either team off two set piece right before halftime.
Second half was a different story for us. With the wind now at MTA's back, and a little tactical change, the roles were reversed and Rev became the team seeming scrambling to stay in the game. I think Rev still tired to play, and handled the pressure a bit better than our girls had, but it was still a one-sided affair for the half.
Rev's best chance came in the second half off a scramble in front of goal and an attempt that just sailed over the crossbar. MTA looked very dangerous on a number of corners, but neither team really created a clear quality chance in the run of play.
Overtime was about as you'd expect, with teams looking more dominant in the half they had the wind at their backs, but this dominance was not as pronounced for either team as it was in regulation. MTA created the best chance in OT with a header off a corner kick smacking the Rev crossbar.
Rev tried to hand us the game in PKs, missing their first three, but we couldn't capitalize. We missed our 7th, they made it, and that was that.
Though the MTA girls rallied from a poor first-half performance to give a solid accounting of themselves, IMO the better overall team on the day won. I said it in a post above - last fall I thought Rev was a better team than us. They are more athletic overall, but they also play better out of pressure. They have some real quality midfielders who were fun to watch. Congrats to Nels and this group. I think they'll do the state proud in Michigan.
Parent coaches are never okay. End of story. Too much drama whether the coach is good or not. It should be a written rule in club soccer. I don't know any parent that doesn't want to do what is best for their kid and when you are a coach, it is very, very hard thing to distance yourself from it. Some coaches go the other way and are harder on the kid... and that isn't right either.
MTA and REV have the best U13 teams in the state and the final was a great match-up of talent. However, I would watch out for the St. Croix team at that age. They could sneak up and surprise some people at the end of the year. Is MTA U13 playing summer state? What happens when they go to ECNL and hold onto the U14 premier? Do they give it to the another team at MTA?
AA Stats Man, I agree with you about EP and Prior Lake. Centennials 14s will also be a HS force to be reckoned with in the coming years. Not to hijack a State Cup thread, but who's your early-doors pick for the AA championship this year?
In terms of no non-ECNL MTA teams heading to Regionals, I would have expected as least one as well. I didn't follow the other age groups closely, and don't know if any non-ECNL MTA teams even contested for a title. I saw the 14s lost in PKs as well. That was a good run for them, considering that both PSA and Centennial both have strong teams.
I will also say that certain MTA directors and I had conversations 3 years ago, acknowledging that the U12 group I had then (the current ECNL 15s) would likely be the last dominant Bangu/MTA girls team for the club. Too many other clubs offering competing programs, too many other DOCs re-focusing at the development of the younger age groups, and ultimately, too many other quality options to choose from. We were OK with this though as MTA was formed primarily to help the development of the BOYS GAME in this state. That was the rational for looking to partner with the state's pro team at the time, and the factor that locked in Bangu leadership, as well as Manny Sanchez (Wings SC DOC at the time) and their board.
Maybe this fact is common knowledge at this time in the soccer community, maybe it's not. I've been out of the loop for awhile, but thought I'd provide some insight from the horse's mouth.
I'm not sure the coaches who grew up in England or Haiti for that matter approach the game the same way as the coaches who grew up in US and went to a D3 school. My point is that we can learn from the best and they have proven to be better at soccer. The parent coach who is coaching and played high school soccer and got a certificate or played D3 doesn't cut it anymore. If they played football, then maybe. But not soccer. It has been crap in the US for years. Lets be honest. It's not a secret that the US has to change the system and coaching at the youth level in order to compete internationaly so why wouldn't it matter? Good athletes are good athletes and they will be good, but what as a coach can you do to develop teams and players who may not be "gifted" at soccer but are willing to do the work? That is the difference between a good coach and a mediocre coach.US coaches who teach the same methods they learned are not advancing the kids game or the sport in general unless they are taking the time to learn from the best. As fpr Nels, I'm not sure his background. That isn't the point. Also, "talent spread across 4-5 teams is absurd. MTA ALWAYS attracts the most talented kids. Yes, you have more talent out there in individuals on teams, but not teams. Some teams have 4-5 really good players, but then have a serious drop off. If MTA shows that they are winning championships, those parent bring the kids there... unless their home club is winning to a satisfactory rate.
Jason, I disagree with your blanket statement about parent coaches. I agree that this brings some issues with it, but it can be successful when the right parent is in place.
I grew up being coached by my father, from 6 year old rec, to U12 - U19 youth soccer, to 3 years in HS. I think the great majority of my teammates over the years would testify to the fact that they had a great soccer experience under his guidance.
Buzz Lagos was also a parent-coach. He developed some of MN's top talent, and brought home a National Championship, won HS State Championships, etc.
I'm a parent now, and think I'd be able to do a pretty good job coaching should either of my girls choose to participate in the sport.
Just my take. As I said, the wrong parent in place can open up the team to a whole mess of problems, and I agree with you here. Just disputing your blanket statement.
Oh, as far as I know, the MTA U14G coach is a parent. He has a 2-year-old girl named Parker and though I hear she's a real talent, I doubt she suits up for his team :)
Jason - you did not answer the question of which coach is a parent coach at the MTA U14 age range.
I will agree with you, the same at MA did, parent coaching can open up issues on the team. But in a few cases that I know of, there have not been any issues. One example is Prior Lake U15. I think you have to know when to let go, as having various coaches is good for the development of the players attitude as well as their game.
Also, what age group at MTA has not won a game in league? Could you please let us know?
If you all bothered to read the post, I am not saying they are bad coaches necessarily. What I do know is that you risk having a political nightmare that divides teams, kids, and parents.
MA- I found out there are actually two parent coaches at the U14 level. Turns out they are not head coaches, but people are saying one of them is too involved. I'm not going to say names because I don't know enough about it to have an opinion. Just water cooler talk between clubs.
I looked up the records of all MTA premier teams and they are a combined 6-8 with one team 0-3 and another 1-3. I didn't include ties. Now that I look at it, I think it is funny that the U13 MTA has a better record than the U14's in the same division! That is weird. On a positive note, at least MTA has a team in almost every premier age group. Not sure how long this will last though. I see other clubs moving in on MTA's dominance in MN (REV) since ECNL teams don't play. Maybe MTA wants to be an "ECNL only" club?
It's still early, but my guess is NMT and WBL @U16 will get the U17premier spots in place of MTA and PSA. REV or St. Croix @U14 will get the U15 premier spots for MTA and TRV. Next years U16 premier is still up in the air as there are many good C1 teams. What do you think?
The talk about parent coaches... There is no need at a club level for this in my opinion. MA, the general statement that Jason has is legit. Avoid it at all costs. If the coach feels they need to coach, then coach another team other than your son/daughter at the club level. Rec league... no problems because it is a "no winners/no losers" league. Nobody is saying it hasn't worked, but when it doesn't, it goes really, really bad and all that it takes is one situation to turn a kid away from soccer forever.
The talk about parent coaches... There is no need at a club level for this in my opinion. MA, the general statement that Jason has is legit. Avoid it at all costs. If the coach feels they need to coach, then coach another team other than your son/daughter at the club level. Rec league... no problems because it is a "no winners/no losers" league. Nobody is saying it hasn't worked, but when it doesn't, it goes really, really bad and all that it takes is one situation to turn a kid away from soccer forever.
To be clear, your original post to which I replied was focused on stating Foreign coaches are better than MTA's coaches and "domestic" coaches. You then switched gears to "parent coaches" are the problem which is a different discussion all together as you can have foreign and domestic parent coaches.
You cannot make a blanket statement that parent coaches are bad/worse than non parent coaches. In the end it depends on the coach, their skills, and their ability to fairly manage having their child on the team. Your argument is equivalent to making the blanket statement that "all unlicensed coaches are bad" or "All licensed coaches are good." The opposite is often true in both cases. To say, as Amy Strand did, that there is no need for parent coaches in Club soccer is akin to saying their is no place for unlicensed/low level licensed coaches in Club soccer. Parent coach, license level, demeanor with players, tactical preference, past and current team style of play from watching, etc.... all go into the mix when determining if a coach is good or bad when I look at coaches for my kiddos.
You clearly have had a bad experience with a parent coach or someone near to you has. Sorry to hear it.
@ Dim Wit - ditto on my end though I do continue my coaching education. Was in Lincoln this past weekend for such and to see an old friend who was conducting a few sessions there.
I always prefered and enjoyed more not coaching my own kids. I was always able to seperate the father/child relationship from the coach/player relationship. My kids however because of the maturity level did not do as well at doing such. Yes, I also tended to be a bit tougher and have higher standards for my own kids which also causes problems.
Fortunately I found other teams to coach so I could let my kids have their own soccer experience.
Hope to return when life slows down a bit on the work side....Should have said sabbatical. Hopefully I can still walk and touch my toes at that point :-)
No dimwit, Parent coaches are not bad coaches. That isn't what was said. Also, I've actually had both good and bad experiences. But the bad experiences are bad for a whole different reason than having "bad" soccer coaching. Ask most parents other than the ones who coach what their feelings are. Nobody will say it for political reasons but they do behind closed doors.
I know its hard to keep up with the conversation Dim Wit, but the other point was that foreign coaches are better. Yes. I believe that to be true. Not popular, but the little things they teach make the difference. No knock on domestic coaches, but I noticed a difference from the first coach we had @U10. That said, i've known bad foreign coaches as communicators but tactically and technically they were good. Also, just because they are good domestic/foreign coaches in MN doesn't make them a good coach. MN kinda sucks nationally. I hate to even say that, but its probably true. I asked a ECNL Eclipse player about our "top club" MTA and they laughed. Sure, once in a while we may get one, but overall MN isnt well respected regionally or nationally.
Dim Wit, I take it you think you were a good coach? Good. We need more good coaches. Not intended to offend anyone who put in the time as a coach. Tough work. I believe clubs who are asking people to fork over 11k a year for soccer better have some freaking licenses. The customers want credibility for their investments. It's like getting a job at a major corporation.
I know plenty of MBAs and lawyers who are not worth the paper their diplomas are printed on. Same goes for soccer licensed coaches. A license and an accent means little in youth soccer. My best employees are not the ones with MBA's....maybe this explains my Perspective and disagreement with your position.
I was a decent coach, kids loved to play (practice or games) and were better when they left tactically and technically. Would not say good or great as i did not have the time necessary.
Grass is not always greener outside the state....eclipse is strong because they pull athletes from a significantly larger base. Their style of play and first touch is not better than many MN teams at the same age groups that I have seen over the years.
I can assure you the answer to MN soccer is not bringing in foreigners to run the stronger clubs
MA, yes too early to take over the thread w/ H.S. now, but answering your question for my “early doors pick” for AA this year – conventional wisdom says we’ll see the same 4 teams in the AA semis again this fall … but not enough depth on any of those teams to guarantee anything. Lakeville North lost a ton of their roster graduation, Burnsville U17 appears to be having some issues with their unfortunate major injury.
If EP U16 can make it to the semis and EP U17 goes 1-1-1 at regionals, EPHS will be my pick to take out either Centennial or Wayzata in the finals in November.
Have also been watching Stillwater -- after a decent MRL showing, was expecting to see more from their SCV team at state cup. 4AA up for grabs this year…
It is a bit tough to keep up with your statements/positions as you never really close out your opinion(s) before adding another one. You Started with "Foreign coaches are better, MTA coaches exposed...", never really responded to why you hold the opinion other than stating they teach the little things better and the foreign coach your kid has now (I presume) is better than your kids U10 domestic coach. Then you switched to parent coaches are not a good idea and loosely defended your position on that topic (Parent coach is only one of many attributes to look at, I would suggest a coach who claims development and plays every game in a win-at-all-cost fashion is worse across the board and there a plenty more of them out there than parent coaches in Club soccer). You have now closed off with coaches considered good in MN may not be good outside the state on a relative basis as "MN kinda sucks nationally" (based on an Eclipse player telling you Thunder is typically an easy game and ???). Talent can make an average coach look great and a great coach look average. I would say there are more average coaches passing as good in the bigger population centers outside MN.
AND then your statement that for $11K/yr (never paid close to that much at any club) of which coaching fees are a small portion you better have Licenses.
As for Payments to coaches and licenses. I have had 2-kids playing "high level" soccer. One coach has very high level credentials and one has a lower level license, they are at different clubs. The (2) coaches are paid the same monthly (small variance in winter as one team trains more hours). Both are very good coaches. Your opinion is a coach needs a license(s) and that equates to pay level. It is not my opinion, or the opinion of many others. I like the supply and demand/market forces approach. The best coaches (as decided by the customers individually) can charge the most, if they desire, regardless of licenses. Most of the coaches I know are not in it for the money as there is not much $$ in coaching a team or two.
Most of the good coaches try to make it affordable for everyone, because they do it for the love of the game. I would speculate that Jason is talking about MTA coaches, where some feel MTA runs more of a business than developing players, especially on the girls side. It could be argued either way, but it is about what the kids and parents decide they want to do and who they feel comfortable with. And I think at times, parents forget that point. People need to remember, it is your child that has to deal with the coach 90% of the time, not you. Make sure they are enjoying the game, the coach and they are developing as a player. That my friend is half the battle, then everything else will usually work itself out and fall in to place. This will equal your child being much happier and your coach being worth the money you are paying for them.
Let's say a competitive team trains year-round an average of 3x per week for an average of 90 minutes per session. That's a total of 234 hours (52 weeks x 3 sessions/week x 1.5 hours). If a player pays $3/hour for this training, and there are 16 players on the team, total coaching fees are around $11K. In MTA's case, this pays not only for a head coach, but also for an assistant.
Total outlay from individual families is $702 for the year for this coaching ($3/hour x 234 hours), and a coach is making $47/hour - if they were receiving the full coaching fees without an assistant.
In comparison, seems like the norm for many week-long soccer camps is around $150 for 15 hours (9AM - Noon, M - F). Residential camps are pushing $450. When you look at these numbers, $700 for a year-long training program seems reasonable, doesn't it?
Moreover, the $47/hour calculated above, though it might seem high for a full-time youth coach, only applies if there is no additional time spent by the coach at games, at tournament weekends, planning for training sessions, reviewing video tape, etc, AND if the coach can somehow teleport to and from all these sessions and avoid commute time. My point being there is a lot more behind the scenes work that coaches all over the country put in to help benefit their players' development.
God bless those who can teach the game, give kids a positive experience in soccer, and foster life skills through sport, all from the goodness of their hearts, or who are in life positions that allow them to make this commitment at little expense to their players' families. But it's just not the reality for the majority of those drawn to coaching, as most individual who commit the time as outlined above, can only do so with compensation.
Licenses or not, I've seen the positive impact a coach can have on his/her players, and as a parent, I would gladly pay $60/mo if my child was given an opportunity to enjoy a sport under capable guidance.
And to think of all the BS they have to deal with. It is probably worse than any corporate job, but to teach and be around the game they love is pretty cool. Not to mention the free vacations around the US!! Most people work in jobs that they don't enjoy so they can make the $ to pay for their kids soccer. If a coach can make a living doing what they love, it is a great place to be. On the flip side, parents paying 10k+ a year for a kid to play soccer is insane. There has to be a better model than that out there???? Did I hear that the MLS cities and their youth clubs are much cheaper than what others are? Vikings stadium bringing MLS? Will that change MTA/MN soccer model?
So you believe parent coaches are fine, licenses are unnecessary and you feel MN coaches are better or as good as other coaches in the US OR international coaches?? Dude, get a freaking clue. I take it you were a MN coach who was also a parent coach who didn't have a license? Well, I guess you can't see the forest through the trees then. I am looking at it from a non coaching, unbiased perspective. "Most others" who prefer a "supply and demand" model? Who? the coaches such as yourself without licenses? Why don't you send your son/daughter over to me so I can teach them how to do math because I did math last year and I am pretty good at it. Oh, I want 10k to teach them too. Hows that sound? It isn't necessarily that the unlicensed coaches are bad, but it SHOULD HELP create demand and give credibility.
Again, you respond with no support for any of your opinions. My point is blanket statements, which is all you seem to make on very little information or experience are dangerous.
It does not matter if we are talking, in this case soccer, or on politics, the economy, or religion. Your opinions are a mile wide and an inch deep. Your tactic for discussion is to raise a new argument instead of responding to counter positions on your first position/opinion.
I may be dim but at least that suggests the attempt at a thought. You explain why right and left wing radio shows drive the big ad revenues.
Again, you respond with no support for any of your opinions. My point is blanket statements, which is all you seem to make on very little information or experience are dangerous.
It does not matter if we are talking, in this case soccer, or on politics, the economy, or religion. Your opinions are a mile wide and an inch deep. Your tactic for discussion is to raise a new argument instead of responding to counter positions on your first position/opinion.
I may be dim but at least that suggests the attempt at a thought. You explain why right and left wing radio shows drive the big ad revenues.
As not to be a hypocrit my response to your message:
I am a soccer fan first and foremost, long before kids, and have attended more professional, US and European, matches than I would guess you have seen on TV based on the content of your posts. I sucked as a player but not for lack of effort. I was decent as a coach with a low level license.
I’ve been trying to find an objective way of benchmarking MN’s performance at regionals relative to the other region 2 states – the best I can come up with is # of teams advancing to the semi’s out of pool play.
During the past 5 years, Minnesota has sent 5 teams to the semis; Ohio North and Indiana also have sent 5. We are behind IL (14), MI (11), KS (11), WI(8), OH-S (7) and MO (7). We are ahead of KY (3), NE (1), IA (0), SD(0), ND(0). No significant improvements shown for MN during this timeframe. Since we are the 3rd largest metro area in Region 2, in theory we should be outperforming everyone but IL and MI (and don’t try to tell me weather has anything to do with it, winter sucks everywhere in the Midwest).
Depending on how the draws go, this year I think we have a decent chance of sending 2 MN teams to the semis. IL, MI, OS and MO will still be tough to beat, but I expect KS, WI and IN will drop way down as they all had a lot of consolidation into their local ECNL clubs and don’t have the population depth backup. NE and KY will continue to have potential to surprise. IA, SD and ND will continue to be the teams everyone wants to draw in their pool play.
Interesting side stat: 80% of the teams advancing to the semis at Regionals for the past 5 years have been from the clubs now in the ECNL. This year more than ever, anything can happen if you advance to the semis.
"On the flip side, parents paying 10k+ a year for a kid to play soccer is insane. There has to be a better model than that out there???? Did I hear that the MLS cities and their youth clubs are much cheaper than what others are? Vikings stadium bringing MLS? Will that change MTA/MN soccer model?"
Amy, I believe we're one, if not the only "pay to play" country. It's the US mentality and I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future.
Some MLS teams may be funding youth development systems in their markets, and maybe that competition has in turn brought costs down across the board with other clubs forced to compete to retain/attract players, but I can't speak to that fact. I know for certain some were funding their US Dev Academy programs, but I don't know if that practice is still in place.
I hope that MLS will come to MN sooner than later, and I hope that it will lead a youth development program in which more serious/talented athletes can take part. The MTA model was about partnering with the local pro club and the benefits this brought to the young players interested. I still believe in those benefits. The Thunder organization was not financially stable enough to survive the negativity that accompanied housing a youth development system under its banner, but I don't think this will be the case if a more-established, MLS franchise came to town and did the same. With the growth, reputation, and support the league has seen across the country, the credibility this will bring - should a MN MLS team and the league itself say they're going to take the reigns of a youth development system - will quiet most naysayers, now more at risk of looking foolish/selfish/etc.
Wow, this blog has really died down. Boring! Come on people, it takes 2 minutes create a bogus gmail account and take a moniker to post.
Breaking down the bracket draws for the MN teams: U19: dreadful draw, grouped with natl top 10 team in Eclipse (IL) and returning regional finalist Mockingbird (KY), at least you pulled SD. U18: inheriting MTA’s old seed did no favors for SCV -- another terrible draw pulling Toro (NE) who have a strong chance to win it all, and also MO (most likely USYS Natl League contender Kopling ), MRL2 team will be also tough. U17: another very tough draw getting the MO team who will likely be the favorite at 17 this year, but if can get past them Internationals (ON) and North Shore (WI) could be beatable. U16: here is where we might see some relief. IL team will still be tough, but at least it won’t be Eclipse due to ECNL. OFC (NE) shouldn’t be underestimated but should be beatable. MRL looks like it will be the #2 ON team that is hot & cold. I think this age is still our best chance for advancement. U15: difficult to tell on this one. MI is a good draw given Hawks and Vardar being out due to ECNL. KS and WI both have decent non-ECNL teams at this age, could come down to the KS game. U14: Anytime you draw IA and SD you’ve hit the jackpot. This is a young age, anything can happen. U13: Too young of an age to be sending to regionals IMO. Just have fun and enjoy the experience.
Net/net not much luck in our draws and will likely be a typical showing for MN at Regionals, will hopefully keep our streak alive of sending a least one team to the semis going.
Tough Regional tourney so far for the MN girls -- one real shot remaining to advance at U14.
Outlook as of close of day 2: U13 (DKT): cannot advance U14 (MU): well done so far, game tomorrow against MO will decide U15 (PRL): technically not out yet, but need a win and some luck in the other game U16 (EP): cannot advance, was hoping for more here from this group U17 (EP): cannot advance U18 (SCV): cannot advance U19 (EP): technically not out yet, also need a win and luck in the other game
Regionals is still a difficult tourney even without the ECNL teams in, but results for MN looking very disappointing so far.
Ouch, very disappointing performance for MN @ Regionals this year. Aggregate record of 4-14-3, no teams advance, two second place bracket finishes and five last place finishes. Only one state had a worse record that MN, South Dakota.
Statistically, here is how the region states rank after group place in terms of average placement and # teams advancing: #1 WI (1.5 avg, 4 advance) #2 OH-N (1.86 avg, 4 advance) #3 / #4 MI & MO (1.86 avg, 3 advance) #5 OH-S (2.0 avg, 3 advance) #6 IN (2.0 avg, 2 advance) #7 KS (2.14 avg, 2 advance) #8 IL (2.29 avg, 2 advance) #9 KY (2.43 avg, 2 advance) #10 NE (2.57 avg, 0 advance) #11 IA (3.14 avg, 0 adavnce) #12 ND (3.0 avg, 0 advance) #13 MN (3.43 avg, 0 advance) #14 SD (3.57 avg, 0 advance)
Population wise we should be consistently #3 or #4, so just really bad when you look at it from that angle. I also think this is a relative gauge of depth within each state when separating out the ECNL clubs.
As we seem to say every year – something needs to change, we continue to underperform. I am just the stats man and don’t have the answers, but we are heading in the wrong direction and know we can do better.
I may sound like a broken record on this but it comes down to lack of consolidation more so than anything. If you look at the clubs from the states near the top of the list they are consistent from year to year even this year with ecnl teams out.
We have enough strong players at most age groups but they continue to be too spread out to compete regionally. When MN gets over being so myopic and the best players come together we will finish 3-5th on average. Will not happen anytime soon....unfortunately.
Consolidation is certainly part of it. Minimally we’d need to consolidate the talent within a given district, but more likely still across the entire metro to be competitive again. Now, the interesting thing looking at the other state teams advancing, there is no one club that sticks out as the dominant program in each state (stripping out OH-N Internationals who is ECNL bound next year). This seems to point to the good old fashioned model of a high profile coach taking a team somewhere and building it up as the local consolidator at that age level, so I think consolidation is still more about the coach driving this vision bottoms up vs. a given club driving it top down (sound familiar MA?)
Preparation seems to be a part of it as well. Many of the other state teams advancing show National League, MRL, Disney & other national showcases, multiple Midwest showcases, etc. to prepare them for their runs at Regionals. Outside of MTA, most Minnesota clubs just don’t commit to this level of travel and preparation.
Agree, that a coach has a larger role than the club in consolidating talent. especially in the early years where most of the best teams form. Sure they add key players from U12-U17, but the core group developed from U8-U12 is responsible for starting the consolidation cycle which builds on itself YoY.
My point on the myopic view is that many parents/players in MN will not move to a strong team with a great coach because of the Logo the team wears. Instead of finding the best development environment, regardless of club, a large percentage of Minnesota's top players and/or their parents look for the best environment only within their club or across 2-3 clubs they deem "good."
Players and parents need to stop thinking about club(s) first and start thinking about training with like players and strong coaches first. This will lead to metro wide consolidation and place more accountability on clubs to deliver strong coaching and development.
Many Minnesotan's are Dustin Hoffman "rain-man" like and "only buy their underwear at Target" even though they could buy the same thing or something better elsewhere.
AA, Fully agree with the limited prep most MN teams have going into regionals relative to the competition.
i'm going to take a different approach to soccer in MN. I'm a bit confused why consolidation is the best idea. Why? So we can have one team compete regionally? What does that do for the development of the kids who don't make the top club or team at age 12? They then get "labeled" and don't get a chance to have excellent coaching or compete? I would rather have 5 or six good teams in the state who develop KIDS so they can move to the next level instead of one super team. The kids that are on the team that loses 7-0 don't learn anything and thus will not develop and lose interest in the game. The kid at 12 years old may not be good, but when they are 18 they may be awesome if they don't quit the game first because of poor development and coaches/clubs quiting on them. I've seen too many 10 year olds get labeled as the next great thing and that alone gets them on the team forever when in fact other kids would be passing them up at 15 years old if given the same opportunity. The goal should be to make soccer more competitive in the state first and that isn't done by consolidation. Consolidation does exactly the opposite of what other countries say how to develop youth soccer. The best way to raise the bar is to have better coaching and not rely on just taking the best athletes, but developing kids into the best soccer players. "Kick and Chase" soccer with fast athletes isn't going to win you anything beyond short term glory. Sadly, that is how we do it here in MN in many cases. Consolidate all the best athletes and play kick and chase and call it winning/great coaching/great soccer. Beyond a few coaches out there, few teach the game based on principals that say a FC Barcelona's "Cantera" does. They focus on skill and technique not obsession with size and strength. Help the youth understand the game. Not running with up and down the field like a track meet.
We clearly do not agree, but I appreciate your point of view as it is held by a majority in MN I believe and it helps to understand some of the reasons for the negative opinions around consolidation.
My responses to your questions:
1. "why, so we have one team compete regionally?"
No, being competitive regionally is more the "exhaust" from consolidation not the reason for it. The reason for it is to have kids of similar ability, commitment level, and soccer intelligence all training together throughout the year. It is globally believed and agreed that the best development occurs when players train with a group of like skilled players. This holds true for the low end of the talent spectrum, the top .01% and all players in between.
2. "What does it do for the kids who do not make the top club or team by age 12?"
Per above, it creates a better peer training environment where their team is not built around reliance and coaching tactics which focus on getting the ball to the star players that are superior to the majority of the team. Ever watch a game with 1-2 star players on the team? the rest of the team defers to them and plays the game around them. Your assumption that every team but the best team at each age group gets lower quality coaching is a falsity. Within a club the second teams often have a fall off in coaching talent but that is life and life is not fair. At age 10-13 there are plenty of very good coaches but with or without consolidation you have to do your homework and seek them out. They may not be at "your" club at the level of play your child plays but they are out there well beyond the "top" teams. Your comment that the top consolidated teams at age group would win 7-0 is also inaccurate. These teams would not play at age level in-state they would play at talent level within the state (play up) if they played in state league at all once older.
Your comment "I have seen too many 10yr olds get labeled the next great thing and that alone gets them on the team forever WHEN in fact other kids WOULD be passing them up at age 15 if given the same opportunity"
Unless you can see the future or are one of the best young age talent scouts on the planet your comment makes no sense. You are stating you know for fact kids on the second team would be better at age 15 than the 12ish year old who is on the top team now because he was labeled the next great thing at 10.
Additionally, I do not know a coach of a high level team that keeps a player on the top team because of tenure if they are sure a better player is out there at the position. (technically, tactically, physically, mentally, effort, and commitment wise) they take the "outside" player without question if he/she is better in their view. You may not agree with the coach's view but your not the coach so it does not matter.
Consolidation is exactly what the other countries around the world in fact do, please research youth soccer development in Spain since you mention Barca. You will see they aggregate the top players at younger ages and much more tightly than in MN and the US at large. You play for free as a tightly consolidated player in top clubs outside the US and you get kicked out when a better player comes along.
I agree with you that we can use better coaches, there is always room for improvement and more top coaches at the youth level. That said you can find good coaches at all age levels in MN. I have had three kids in/through youth soccer in MN and they all had very good coaches most years. They also all played for different clubs at one point as coaching + training with equally skilled players was the primary decision factor at the young ages (when I and my better half made decisions where to play for them).
Once again you are missing the point. I don't even want to reply because you are already set in your ways and will not be swayed in any form. It is this arrogant bull headed approach that sends our program down the wrong path. As stated in an earlier post, MN by population should be doing better at regions/nationally. So what is the missing piece? We are not consolidating enough or are we not developing enough good soccer players? My approach is on the development side and not on the "pick 18 of the fastest kids at age 12 and develop them only." My stance is on kids at 12 who get "consolidated" to play with "higher level" players get a better opportunity to develop at that age than the kids who weren't selected in a group of 18 players. I want a larger "pool." So they can all develop. Those kids then at 12 who didn't get selected then don't get the best coaching or opportunity to grow in the next years by being challenged physically and mentally. Therefore, you will not know what kind of players could have developed as girls go through puberty. Then, those kids quit and we are left with very little to choose from in the state of MN. I don't agree with the NY Yankee approach to winning. I am more of a MN Twins guy. Don't tell me what other countries do ahole. I lived there until I was 16 and consolidation there is completely different than what you are suggesting here. If we consolidate in MN now the culture will not grow and the sport will not grow. We must do a better job to give more opportunity to EVERYONE who plays to be challenged and exposed to great coaching and higher level players. These kids (12) who get opportunities to play with better players improve. They then play with other kids who are on other teams and those kids improve. That is and should be our goal; to develop more average soccer players into great players. Not a select few at age 12.
Consolidation does not limit the opportunity of those on the second or third or 4th team as you suggest.
Why would you state consolidation does the exact opposite of what other countries do/teach when you know from living abroad that they do consolidate more and earlier than MN and the US? They just have a different/more sophisticated view in man cases of what talent is.
Your issue seems to be that you do not like the type of players being consolidated and the level of coaching. As I read your posts through again it seems you would support consolidation if the coaching was at the level you desire and the right type of players were consolidated.
I do not believe consolidation or lack there of addresses the crux of your real concerns after re-reading your posts..
I believe you need both in parallel to improve...consolidation and improved/deeper pool of coaches.
We are both stubborn in our views and that is good. Makes for good thought and consideration on ones own opinion. Don't think your an a hole because you oppose my views and question my statements and beliefs.
I always laugh when I hear people proclaim "no consolidation". Virtually every club already consolidates - call them the "A" team and the "B" team, Red and White, Blue or Red, etc.... I don't hear those same people stating that their club should have 2-3 completely mixed teams at each and every age group. Same people who also don't mind if little "Jane" joins their kid's team from another adjacent club because she's good and can help them win. My guess is that "consolidation" and "recruiting" is acceptable as long as it is in someone's best interest. Personally, I agree with Dim Wit. If you play basketball, how do you improve your defensive post game unless you play against strong offensive players - how do you improve your "take it to the whole" offensive game unless you are challenged by strong defenders. The same principles hold true in soccer. You get better by training against like skilled players. I agree that this process should not begin until the early teens (not aware of many teams/clubs that start much younger). Most of the top girls teams shuffle their roster every year - changing 2-4 players annually. In looking at recent history, the "top" local team by the team they reach U19 might have half the players that were on that team at U13.
@Jason - "Dim Wit" is just stating his opinion. It's cool to disagree, but why do you have to call someone an ahole? Seriously, man.
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Absolutely agree with you
Will this be a Maturi hire or the first addition by the new AD?
If MDW does come to club soccer you will easily find her team at a multi-field complex. They will be the strongest and tallest team on the field. Tough to get the "better be big to compete in the Big 10 (with an exception for 1-2 speed merchants that can be smaller)" off the brain.
If I were to take a clubs style/philosophy out of MN club soccer and place it at the UofM I would like it to be MU's. their teams play the best possession with a purpose soccer across age groups. What they lack is enough depth athletically at many age groups. (I have no kid there)
2:47.... Totally disagree. MU teams are cheap and play kick ball.
3:25 PM identify yourself or get off this site
5:49pm thinks he/she has some sort of ownership over who posts on the blog! WTH?? That's about as funny as the MDW coaching my u9 club team rumors.
Regarding MA coaching at the U... He has a good history of recruiting........ (had to do it).
5:49
Why would I ID myself? So you can do what? Type in capital letters and tell me i'm wrong? That is my opinion and many other clubs opinions of MU. Rev MTA St. Croix are all better at technical soccer than MU teams.
I'm amazed at the the discussions that are going on with the potential candidates for the position at the U. I'm not positive but I'm sure some of the names thrown out were candidates previously. Almost 98% of Division 1 jobs require college experience to include recruiting college student-athletes specially for a Big Ten school. I think there is an assistant coach at Louisville that could meet all requirements and don't forget the new U AD had a former national team player, Tiffany Roberts, coaching at VCU. Should be interesting this close to season
Agree - give the job to Kyle, he would be a good fit.
7:22 what are you talking about. Are you reading a job description or speculating on what you think? I thought so. Remember this is a University that pays millions to basketball and football coaches who loose more games than the twins in a season...well not that many.
8:54 If you'd been a GA or asst you'd know that the template for Div I soccer coach is practically a template for all schools.
8:35 He has to be in top 5 with solid recruiting knowledge in Midwest. Not sure if Maturi is hiring would he hire a former assistant. New AD definitely would get a lot of respect for such a choice
6:47 PM -- Chicken! I'm watching you.
5/24/12 12:30 AM - Who is the U14 girls coach at MU? Because I do not think it is the DOC, unless they have more than one DOC.
John S is the DOC. He is also the coach of the U14 girls.
I have not watched MUs 14s. That said, long passes to a target player (feet or ideally into space where they can run onto it cleanly) is not kickball. Easiest way to tell the difference is to see if the defender or mid has their head up picking out a target or if head is down when they approach the ball.
I see lots of teams that do not "boot it long" but they play passes without looking up.. They run "set plays" down the field. In my opinion this is just as bad as kicking long to the corner flag. Very predictable for the defense and no decisions made on the ball to take advantage of better options.
A team that plays almost exclusively short passes is just as inept as a team that kicks long and blindly to corner flags. The well coached teams make decisions to maximize oppty wether it be long, short, or attack 1:1 when on the ball.
12:30 AM -- I now know who you are.
9:01 AM.....
Well said.
I would say teams who try and move the ball and control the game will be better off long term than the teams who kick and chase. Those teams that try and control the play and possess the ball may not be winning now, but will be better soccer players in the future. MTA (and others) love the big girl who can run and it doesn't really matter if she has skills or not. That way they can get away with a lot without coaching. Japan bean USA because of skill and style, not pure strength and brute force.
I agree with 9:15, Nels Dokkens team is awesome on the possession game. They control the ball better than any other team at that age. That will def help in the big picture.
the posts on this board are amazing...10:08 is talking about a u13 team in MN and using words like 'awesome', 'better than anyone'. You folks need to get out more. they are a nice team but lets get through state cup first before crowning them the next team usa
11:01 maybe you should get out and check them out. Maybe your c2 team could learn from them. Lol
I kind of agree with what you're saying 11:01, but anyone who understands the nature of soccer understands that the best team isn't always going to win. It's always bothered me that many people here seem to judge a team based only on their performance at State Cup.
10:08 trying to bring it back to the Rev 13's. Let's not bring that subject back till next week when you simply won't be able to help yourself. I'm sick of hearing about the 13's. Leave it alone!
amen 12:46, enough already
12:46 PM do you want to meet somewhere to discuss further?
1:14. I'll have to pass. Just chuckling that you try to bring it back to the 13's. I think you like to stir the pot.
10:08 -
You are most certainly the rev 13's number 1 fan, you most certainly do not know much about soccer beyond U13 rev.
Guessing bored grandparent or parent who's oldest or only child is on the team. Please go watch some high level soccer before posting again.
Being "awesome at the possession game" as you state exposes you. It is the equivalent of stating they are the best at keep away. It takes possession with purpose to score. The rev 13s to posses well but they often go no where with it in a dangerous way. The purpose of possessing the ball (until late in the game when winning) is to score goals. Better to be on the wrong side of possession and the right side of the score board. Ask barca and bayern.
MTA is the best u13 team I have ever seen. They are so big and powerful. I would put them up against any u14 or u15 team for that matter and they would do well. A couple of these girls will be Olympic bound very soon.
June 3rd can't get here quick enough.
I think the MTA U13 girls could compete in the BIG 10 Conference. I agree with you 2:58 they are a very talented group.
ok 1:14. You managed to bring it back again. Mission accomplished. maybe you should get a job?
You REV parents are crazy.
For those who don't know or don't follow, Barca and Bayern are grown-up boy versions of REV.
Both Barca and Bayern lost to a less skilled team.
OMG! U13 girls Olympic bound? Dude, seriously? They might get beat by Rev at State. At 13 how can you possibly tell anyway? I've seen them play and the players aren't much different than any others. They have a GREAT coach who drives them to work hard. End of story. They are competing at U14 Premiere. Impressive. We will have to see how the season plays out. BTW, bigger teams will physically crush them if they play them that way.
1:38
That is the point... if the can possess the ball at 13, they can learn how to translate that into goals as they get older. THAT is the point, whether they win or not. Unlike these other teams who just play to win now. Not saying the REV girls are less talented, but they will be able to win by playing soccer without relying on having all the best athletes like MTA does. That takes patience and coaching. How else can you compete when MTA steals all the athletes? Team play!!! (MTA has some good coaches too)Technical and tactical over size and athleticism.
4:37 -
Go to the 13 final. You will see two teams with some of the best athletes in the state at age group. You will see little in the way of a strong possession game from either side as both teams will be under more pressure than they typically compete against.
It will be mostly physical with some possession for both teams not the other way around.
I disagree that learning a possession game (without purpose) when not under pressure most games at 13 does not translate into goals later. Watch the passes made and the alternatives not taken and then decide. Of the list below you see the last two selected when options higher up the list are "on" more often than not and people believe because they retained possession the right choice was made.
Stolen but I like it (Player subconscious priority list before the ball arrives)
- Can I shoot
- Can I pass to an open shot
- Can I attack to shoot
- Can I pass forward
- Can I dribble forward to take the defense out of shape
- Can I switch the field with a pass
- Can I slice across looking for a pass
- Can I retain possession with a support pass
- Can I dribble back away from pressure
Meant I disagree that "it does" translate....
How often do you hear this......
Statement #1
"Gee, the girls really looked great today! Passing and possession was amazing..!!!"
Statement #2
"Dang, the girls were really off today, kept losing the ball and were out of sync...."
Statement #1 - usually commented after playing a weaker team that lacked both overall skill and athleticsm. Not a lot of pressure on the ball and could pretty much do what they wanted to.
Statement #2 - usually commented after playing an equal or superior team. Oposition pressure on the ball resulted in lost composure, hurried and errant passes. Other team was just as skilled and possessions was split.
I've seen lots of U13-U15 MN teams that play like Statement #1 in State Cup and then play like Statement #2 at regionals/ECNL/MRL Premier, etc...
I would like to see the U13 girls against the Gophers I think it would be a close game...MTA u13 is so good!!! They will not lose another game all year.
I'm REALLY looking forward to the U13G final. I saw the Rev girls play last fall and, as I told people then, they are the strongest MN U13G team I've seen at the age group in recent years. Our 13s are no pushovers, and we're gearing up to make it a battle.
Regardless of which team ends up representing MN in MI this summer, IMO and weather permitting, this will be one of the most entertaining and well-balanced U13G's finals in a long, long time - contested between two teams that are coached to play the game with long-term player development in mind. These are clearly the top two U13G teams in the state at this time, and either team would represent the state well at Regionals.
There's a lot of hype from people here on this blog, but I know I speak for all the coaches, and for the majority of the parents involved, when I say all of this crap should be kept from the girls, and we should ALL be excited to sit back and watch them enjoy the challenge of the day.
I hope we don't go to PKs...
Hey! Congrats to the Admin for requiring user names. Now you can be tracked by the admin should you spew trash!
A combo pack of MA's post and the requirement to have a user ID should help improve the quality of the discussion on here. Hopefully those out there that like to discuss youth soccer and soccer in general will stick around and the noise will be gone....
Dim Wit
@524 - 458,
nice post, additionally to your excellent points, what I see so many trainers and coaches missing in the development of players is what takes place over 90% of the game, and that is how a player plays off the ball.
Off the ball movement in the attack - making smart, unselfish runs to move opponents to create new space for your teammates to attack into.
Parents - everyone watches what is going on around the ball but not what the rest of the team is doing off it to support, provide coverage or balance.
MA- great positive post and the subtle self-deprecating humor made my day.
TomASS, I should have taken the Dim Wit moniker a post earlier as I am 524-458.....Cheers and agree with your thoughts. The offensive players off the ball can make the player on the ball look very good or very bad based on their actions.
Nice!
The percent of wackos was higher than expected. Happy memorial day weekend, please remember why most have a day off.
Dim Wit, I agree with a lot of what you said in your 458 post.
What I disagree with is the thought that the U13G final will be more physical than anything else.
Our team is not a physical team. After watching Rev play in last fall (albeit only one game), I wouldn't classify them as a physical team either. There will be some strong athletes on both sides, that's for sure, but you'll see more than a fair share of smaller, intelligent, more technical players - and, IMO, there will be the attempt from both teams to play attractive and effective soccer.
I've been wrong 2 or 3 times in the past, but this is my guess as to what we'll see in the final... again, weather permitting.
MA, I have been wrong more than you! By physical I did not mean "Brute ball" per se. I meant physical capabilities/athleticism would be leveraged on the ball (speed, quickness, strength, agility) by players in this game much more than connecting 5-6 passes to get down the field. The pressure both from the opponents defensive speed to the ball and the "big game" will limit the amount of attractive soccer both these teams typically display in my view.
Hope I am wrong, would love to see both teams put on a display of the beautiful game!
Where did all the Anons Go??
;-p
Quick question for folks here (because I don't know where else to ask)
I have a skilled U16 player who isn't playing club ball this spring (time, politics, cost, etc.) but would still like to guest at USA Cup or other local tournaments.
Is there any way for a free-agent to obtain a player pass from a governing body in order to be able to guest?
Thanks
@Blasher - I know it can be a fun enjoyable experience since my daughter did it some time ago. However she was playing for a team that did not attend, but she had a players pass and just registered through the tourney web site
I hate to say it but the best answer would come from you calling the MYSA offices to check on all the rules and regulations that go on with the soccer bureaucracy of our state
Man, this is a hyped up game - we may have to make the trip to watch! Mark, are you going to be a spectator or are you helping Kaasa coach? We know you have been helping a little bit with the training and coached a few times, but just wondering about this state cup game.
Thanks for the response tomASS, much appreciated. I'll check it out.
Outspoken, I'm the team's assistant coach and involved as my time allows. Definitely planning on helping at the final. It's going to be a fun game to watch.
blasher - MYSA would be the best bet since they match up players with teams. My daughter guest played in several USA Cups, always having a great opportunity, and even winning the championship as a guest player. Does she have a player pass for any league? If not, that can be arranged (my son guest played as well, and had to obtain a special pass because of some US Club vs. US Youth soccer conflicts with MYSA). My best advice is to ask first and get the answer in writing. I almost lost my daughter's ECNL eligibility for believing something that wasn't in writing - I will never make that mistake again. Good luck, and I would be happy to talk more in general. It sounds like you are experiencing some things that I lived through with my daughter, and I would be glad to share my insights.
great point Soccer fan - always, always, always get something in writing if it's from the MYSA
Uh wonder where all the Anon parents are???
;-)
Crickets.
Even though some people choose to register and post under their own names, I'm all for the Anon postings. Frees people from fear, shame, and consequences, that's for sure, but we then get true thoughts and feelings, malicious as they may be at times. I know this was eye-opening and helpful to me, when through this blog over the years I found out that, contrary to my world view at the time, I wasn't the most-loved and respected coach in Minnesota soccer history. :)
MA - that is just good old fashion MN Nice better known as passive aggressive behavior. I'm a native who lived away for over 15 years so I can say that.
They still can take a bogus name and post it without being known. Taking a moniker just makes associating statements with a moniker easier to follow and converse with
tomASS, I didn't follow you there. Were you saying I was my post was MN Nice? Maybe it was to some extent (I had to look up the definition of that actually), but I'm far beyond feeling any need to be passive aggressive when it comes to youth soccer in this state.
I fully agree that the main point of taking a monicker is for tracking conversations. Most people would still be Anons even with monickers, but my point is/was that I LIKE it when Anons post, regardless of monicker, for the reasons stated. We all then get uncensored comments, and those comments speak more truth than ones typed with outright fear of consequence or repercussion. People are clearly passionate about their youth soccer choices across the board and that breeds hostility, but for all the negativity associated with blogs like this, it is the one place that people have made their feelings clear. Sure, some people use the blog with divisive intent, but if we all agree that perception drives reality in many cases, there is also a lot of truth in these threads.
I'm rambling...
Sorry MA - not directed at you but most MN soccer parents who post here. You have been, as far as I know very up front regarding the truths as you see and live them.
We are on the same page - I just disliked all the posts with Anon's since it so hard to follow who is saying what.
The way it is set up now should not prevent uncensored comments but it seems like it has or the posters are just too lazy to make a few additional keystrokes, though you wouldn't think so by their comments.
Hi guys,
Thank you for the helpful input about obtaining appropriate reg for guesting. I have a note out to MYSA and to USA Cup as to what they will recognize. I am familiar with the MYSA organizational structure and options for finding an affiliate club/team. Was just hoping there was some other way for a 'free agent'. Just tired of all the club stuff, organizational politics, positioning, rabid parents in search of college scholarship (rabid parents in general), etc. Skilled kid just wants to to be able to play and recreational level just isn't appropriate.
Thanks again.
I will say one thing about blocking the anons....the signal to noise ratio has improved dramatically. I don't know that I could have asked this question and received thoughtful answers if anons were allowed. If I were the sysop for this site, I would suggest a dedicated anon board where people can flame each other, etc. and leave the others with registration.
Blasher, I appreciate your frustration, but, with all due respect, if your daughter is skilled, perhaps you need to get beyond the politics. I put up with it for years, to include all of the above you mentioned and more (admittedly, me being part of the problem in some situations). If it is her passion, you may need to suck it up and get her on a team where she can excel. Believe me, if it were up to me, I would have pulled my daughter from MTA years ago, but the bottom line is that SHE wanted to play there. Just a thought, but I wanted to share. The rabid parents in search of a scholarship are sometimes attempting to do what they can for their kids, because, God knows, at least in my case, grades alone were getting their daughter nowhere. She will be playing D-1, without soccer, her offers so far have been Wartburg, Carrol College, etc. Again, no disrespect but something to consider...
Hey Soccerfan,
Thanks for taking the time to respond and for your perspective.
All the best to your daughter in her college and soccer pursuits!
No worries, tomASS.
blahser, hope your daughter finds a way to take part in USA Cup. Some of my best youth soccer memories come from participating in that event in the mid to late 80s.
"participating in that event in the mid to late 80s."
better known as the post-colonial soccer years in MN ;-)
At least it wasn't the stone age when I played
Man, making people create usernames has really toned the blog down. MNF, what is the next step? Do you keep it like this and no one will post or do you give people one more chance to behave?
Opinions are good, name calling and threats are not.
Example: 12:46 PM do you want to meet somewhere to discuss further?
5/24/12 1:14 PM
Good luck to all teams this weekend. May good soccer be played. Unfortunately I will be out of town for the games. Would appreciate a post game synopsis of the finals.
Thanks,
Saw the final heard shootout to the 7th. How was the play. Fairly even?
Congrats to all of the State Cup champions!
Special shout out to EP, sending 3 teams to regionals this year. Per my new handle, I follow the high school game closely and this time of year I watch for the club teams with the highest concentration of H.S. players playing club ball together. I expect EPHS to be a force again next year with over 10 of their players on this fall's roster heading to regionals.
I'm also going to be watching Prior Lake's U15 @ regionals, as they also have a high concentration of H.S. players. Still a young team, but I am looking for PLHS to be a possible sleeper this fall (2AA will be the section of death again this fall).
Good luck to all at Regionals.
P.S. -- Not to rub it in, but zero teams going to regionals from MTA this year ... would have thought at least one of MTA's non-ECNL teams would have been going.
MTA coaching has finally been exposed. They actually have to coach these kids who may not be the top talent in the state. Even the U13 team lost with a consolidated group of "top" talent. Some of the foreign coaches are out performing them where it counts. I heard that the club even has a parent coach at U14. What a bunch of crap for a club that is so arrogant. No wonder they haven't won a game this year in league.
It would be interesting this year to see each of the state cup winners matched up to each of MTA’s ECNL teams. Maybe MTA can start a new tradition hosting the “MTA Friendlies” for each of the state cup winners to scrimmage against MTA’s ECNL U14-U18 teams before regionals.
I suspect MTA would still dominate, but only one way to know for sure. Great PR opp as well for MTA to prove if they are still the best game in town.
Jason, last I checked Nels Dokken is a US citizen....also not sure why you need to point out foreign coaches versus domestic. A good coach is a good coach regardless of their passport. Furthermore, there has been little consolidation of top talent at U13. Some of the best players are spread across 4-5 teams currently..
I, and most, would agree there are several strong coaches at each age group outside MTA and a few who are better at each age group. Nobody has claimed MTA has all the best coaches.
That said, good to see a few new posters.
U17 ECNL team beat the Chicago Eclipse, number one team in the nation today. MN has a lot of talent - other than the current U18s, the problem has always been a lack of commitment (in my opinion). We DO have talent in the state. I watched a U15 PL vs. Tonka match on Friday, and the overall level of play compared to a few years ago when my daughter was that age is amazing. We need good coaches at the U 10, 11, 12 ages to inspire these girls!!!!
Question: If there is a parent that can coach, knows and understands the game and is qualified to coach (licenses, etc.), why is that an issue?
Jason Floucoul, which MTA team has a prent coach, please let us know.
Dim Wit, I couldn't tell from your 6:26pm post if you saw the 13G final, or heard it went to PKs.
I stick to my last week's claim that this game had the most collective talent on the field between the two teams than any other U13G State Cup final to date, and I think that at times, both teams played some very attractive soccer.
With the wind at their backs, Rev took it to our girls for the first 25 minutes. It was a very uninspired performance by MTA, and I think we literally made it into Rev's half of the field 2 or 3 times. It was bad enough that I asked the 4th official if I could throw another ball on the field so our girls could play a bit.
Rev's territory dominance led to a number of CKs, but minimal real direct threat at goal.
To the MTA girls' credit, they finally started to muster up a fight, and looked more dangerous the last 10 minutes of the half, creating the two best chance at goal of either team off two set piece right before halftime.
Second half was a different story for us. With the wind now at MTA's back, and a little tactical change, the roles were reversed and Rev became the team seeming scrambling to stay in the game. I think Rev still tired to play, and handled the pressure a bit better than our girls had, but it was still a one-sided affair for the half.
Rev's best chance came in the second half off a scramble in front of goal and an attempt that just sailed over the crossbar. MTA looked very dangerous on a number of corners, but neither team really created a clear quality chance in the run of play.
Overtime was about as you'd expect, with teams looking more dominant in the half they had the wind at their backs, but this dominance was not as pronounced for either team as it was in regulation. MTA created the best chance in OT with a header off a corner kick smacking the Rev crossbar.
Rev tried to hand us the game in PKs, missing their first three, but we couldn't capitalize. We missed our 7th, they made it, and that was that.
Though the MTA girls rallied from a poor first-half performance to give a solid accounting of themselves, IMO the better overall team on the day won. I said it in a post above - last fall I thought Rev was a better team than us. They are more athletic overall, but they also play better out of pressure. They have some real quality midfielders who were fun to watch. Congrats to Nels and this group. I think they'll do the state proud in Michigan.
Parent coaches are never okay. End of story. Too much drama whether the coach is good or not. It should be a written rule in club soccer. I don't know any parent that doesn't want to do what is best for their kid and when you are a coach, it is very, very hard thing to distance yourself from it. Some coaches go the other way and are harder on the kid... and that isn't right either.
Thanks MA, saw the final score is what I meant, not in town. Appreciate the synopsis. I missed a good one!
MTA and REV have the best U13 teams in the state and the final was a great match-up of talent. However, I would watch out for the St. Croix team at that age. They could sneak up and surprise some people at the end of the year. Is MTA U13 playing summer state? What happens when they go to ECNL and hold onto the U14 premier? Do they give it to the another team at MTA?
AA Stats Man, I agree with you about EP and Prior Lake. Centennials 14s will also be a HS force to be reckoned with in the coming years. Not to hijack a State Cup thread, but who's your early-doors pick for the AA championship this year?
In terms of no non-ECNL MTA teams heading to Regionals, I would have expected as least one as well. I didn't follow the other age groups closely, and don't know if any non-ECNL MTA teams even contested for a title. I saw the 14s lost in PKs as well. That was a good run for them, considering that both PSA and Centennial both have strong teams.
I will also say that certain MTA directors and I had conversations 3 years ago, acknowledging that the U12 group I had then (the current ECNL 15s) would likely be the last dominant Bangu/MTA girls team for the club. Too many other clubs offering competing programs, too many other DOCs re-focusing at the development of the younger age groups, and ultimately, too many other quality options to choose from. We were OK with this though as MTA was formed primarily to help the development of the BOYS GAME in this state. That was the rational for looking to partner with the state's pro team at the time, and the factor that locked in Bangu leadership, as well as Manny Sanchez (Wings SC DOC at the time) and their board.
Maybe this fact is common knowledge at this time in the soccer community, maybe it's not. I've been out of the loop for awhile, but thought I'd provide some insight from the horse's mouth.
Dim Wit,
I'm not sure the coaches who grew up in England or Haiti for that matter approach the game the same way as the coaches who grew up in US and went to a D3 school. My point is that we can learn from the best and they have proven to be better at soccer. The parent coach who is coaching and played high school soccer and got a certificate or played D3 doesn't cut it anymore. If they played football, then maybe. But not soccer. It has been crap in the US for years. Lets be honest. It's not a secret that the US has to change the system and coaching at the youth level in order to compete internationaly so why wouldn't it matter? Good athletes are good athletes and they will be good, but what as a coach can you do to develop teams and players who may not be "gifted" at soccer but are willing to do the work? That is the difference between a good coach and a mediocre coach.US coaches who teach the same methods they learned are not advancing the kids game or the sport in general unless they are taking the time to learn from the best. As fpr Nels, I'm not sure his background. That isn't the point. Also, "talent spread across 4-5 teams is absurd. MTA ALWAYS attracts the most talented kids. Yes, you have more talent out there in individuals on teams, but not teams. Some teams have 4-5 really good players, but then have a serious drop off. If MTA shows that they are winning championships, those parent bring the kids there... unless their home club is winning to a satisfactory rate.
Jason, I disagree with your blanket statement about parent coaches. I agree that this brings some issues with it, but it can be successful when the right parent is in place.
I grew up being coached by my father, from 6 year old rec, to U12 - U19 youth soccer, to 3 years in HS. I think the great majority of my teammates over the years would testify to the fact that they had a great soccer experience under his guidance.
Buzz Lagos was also a parent-coach. He developed some of MN's top talent, and brought home a National Championship, won HS State Championships, etc.
I'm a parent now, and think I'd be able to do a pretty good job coaching should either of my girls choose to participate in the sport.
Just my take. As I said, the wrong parent in place can open up the team to a whole mess of problems, and I agree with you here. Just disputing your blanket statement.
Oh, as far as I know, the MTA U14G coach is a parent. He has a 2-year-old girl named Parker and though I hear she's a real talent, I doubt she suits up for his team :)
MA - LOL! The last sentence was great.
Jason - you did not answer the question of which coach is a parent coach at the MTA U14 age range.
I will agree with you, the same at MA did, parent coaching can open up issues on the team. But in a few cases that I know of, there have not been any issues. One example is Prior Lake U15. I think you have to know when to let go, as having various coaches is good for the development of the players attitude as well as their game.
Also, what age group at MTA has not won a game in league? Could you please let us know?
If you all bothered to read the post, I am not saying they are bad coaches necessarily. What I do know is that you risk having a political nightmare that divides teams, kids, and parents.
MA- I found out there are actually two parent coaches at the U14 level. Turns out they are not head coaches, but people are saying one of them is too involved. I'm not going to say names because I don't know enough about it to have an opinion. Just water cooler talk between clubs.
I looked up the records of all MTA premier teams and they are a combined 6-8 with one team 0-3 and another 1-3. I didn't include ties. Now that I look at it, I think it is funny that the U13 MTA has a better record than the U14's in the same division! That is weird. On a positive note, at least MTA has a team in almost every premier age group. Not sure how long this will last though. I see other clubs moving in on MTA's dominance in MN (REV) since ECNL teams don't play. Maybe MTA wants to be an "ECNL only" club?
It's still early, but my guess is NMT and WBL @U16 will get the U17premier spots in place of MTA and PSA. REV or St. Croix @U14 will get the U15 premier spots for MTA and TRV. Next years U16 premier is still up in the air as there are many good C1 teams. What do you think?
The talk about parent coaches... There is no need at a club level for this in my opinion. MA, the general statement that Jason has is legit. Avoid it at all costs. If the coach feels they need to coach, then coach another team other than your son/daughter at the club level. Rec league... no problems because it is a "no winners/no losers" league. Nobody is saying it hasn't worked, but when it doesn't, it goes really, really bad and all that it takes is one situation to turn a kid away from soccer forever.
The talk about parent coaches... There is no need at a club level for this in my opinion. MA, the general statement that Jason has is legit. Avoid it at all costs. If the coach feels they need to coach, then coach another team other than your son/daughter at the club level. Rec league... no problems because it is a "no winners/no losers" league. Nobody is saying it hasn't worked, but when it doesn't, it goes really, really bad and all that it takes is one situation to turn a kid away from soccer forever.
Jason,
To be clear, your original post to which I replied was focused on stating Foreign coaches are better than MTA's coaches and "domestic" coaches. You then switched gears to "parent coaches" are the problem which is a different discussion all together as you can have foreign and domestic parent coaches.
You cannot make a blanket statement that parent coaches are bad/worse than non parent coaches. In the end it depends on the coach, their skills, and their ability to fairly manage having their child on the team. Your argument is equivalent to making the blanket statement that "all unlicensed coaches are bad" or "All licensed coaches are good." The opposite is often true in both cases. To say, as Amy Strand did, that there is no need for parent coaches in Club soccer is akin to saying their is no place for unlicensed/low level licensed coaches in Club soccer. Parent coach, license level, demeanor with players, tactical preference, past and current team style of play from watching, etc.... all go into the mix when determining if a coach is good or bad when I look at coaches for my kiddos.
You clearly have had a bad experience with a parent coach or someone near to you has. Sorry to hear it.
Full disclosure, past parent coach for multiple kids.....now retired
@ Dim Wit - ditto on my end though I do continue my coaching education. Was in Lincoln this past weekend for such and to see an old friend who was conducting a few sessions there.
I always prefered and enjoyed more not coaching my own kids. I was always able to seperate the father/child relationship from the coach/player relationship. My kids however because of the maturity level did not do as well at doing such. Yes, I also tended to be a bit tougher and have higher standards for my own kids which also causes problems.
Fortunately I found other teams to coach so I could let my kids have their own soccer experience.
tomASS,
Hope to return when life slows down a bit on the work side....Should have said sabbatical. Hopefully I can still walk and touch my toes at that point :-)
No dimwit, Parent coaches are not bad coaches. That isn't what was said. Also, I've actually had both good and bad experiences. But the bad experiences are bad for a whole different reason than having "bad" soccer coaching. Ask most parents other than the ones who coach what their feelings are. Nobody will say it for political reasons but they do behind closed doors.
I know its hard to keep up with the conversation Dim Wit, but the other point was that foreign coaches are better. Yes. I believe that to be true. Not popular, but the little things they teach make the difference. No knock on domestic coaches, but I noticed a difference from the first coach we had @U10. That said, i've known bad foreign coaches as communicators but tactically and technically they were good. Also, just because they are good domestic/foreign coaches in MN doesn't make them a good coach. MN kinda sucks nationally. I hate to even say that, but its probably true. I asked a ECNL Eclipse player about our "top club" MTA and they laughed. Sure, once in a while we may get one, but overall MN isnt well respected regionally or nationally.
Dim Wit, I take it you think you were a good coach? Good. We need more good coaches. Not intended to offend anyone who put in the time as a coach. Tough work. I believe clubs who are asking people to fork over 11k a year for soccer better have some freaking licenses. The customers want credibility for their investments. It's like getting a job at a major corporation.
Jason,
I know plenty of MBAs and lawyers who are not worth the paper their diplomas are printed on. Same goes for soccer licensed coaches. A license and an accent means little in youth soccer. My best employees are not the ones with MBA's....maybe this explains my Perspective and disagreement with your position.
I was a decent coach, kids loved to play (practice or games) and were better when they left tactically and technically. Would not say good or great as i did not have the time necessary.
Grass is not always greener outside the state....eclipse is strong because they pull athletes from a significantly larger base. Their style of play and first touch is not better than many MN teams at the same age groups that I have seen over the years.
I can assure you the answer to MN soccer is not bringing in foreigners to run the stronger clubs
MA, yes too early to take over the thread w/ H.S. now, but answering your question for my “early doors pick” for AA this year – conventional wisdom says we’ll see the same 4 teams in the AA semis again this fall … but not enough depth on any of those teams to guarantee anything. Lakeville North lost a ton of their roster graduation, Burnsville U17 appears to be having some issues with their unfortunate major injury.
If EP U16 can make it to the semis and EP U17 goes 1-1-1 at regionals, EPHS will be my pick to take out either Centennial or Wayzata in the finals in November.
Have also been watching Stillwater -- after a decent MRL showing, was expecting to see more from their SCV team at state cup. 4AA up for grabs this year…
Jason,
It is a bit tough to keep up with your statements/positions as you never really close out your opinion(s) before adding another one. You Started with "Foreign coaches are better, MTA coaches exposed...", never really responded to why you hold the opinion other than stating they teach the little things better and the foreign coach your kid has now (I presume) is better than your kids U10 domestic coach. Then you switched to parent coaches are not a good idea and loosely defended your position on that topic (Parent coach is only one of many attributes to look at, I would suggest a coach who claims development and plays every game in a win-at-all-cost fashion is worse across the board and there a plenty more of them out there than parent coaches in Club soccer). You have now closed off with coaches considered good in MN may not be good outside the state on a relative basis as "MN kinda sucks nationally" (based on an Eclipse player telling you Thunder is typically an easy game and ???). Talent can make an average coach look great and a great coach look average. I would say there are more average coaches passing as good in the bigger population centers outside MN.
AND then your statement that for $11K/yr (never paid close to that much at any club) of which coaching fees are a small portion you better have Licenses.
As for Payments to coaches and licenses. I have had 2-kids playing "high level" soccer. One coach has very high level credentials and one has a lower level license, they are at different clubs. The (2) coaches are paid the same monthly (small variance in winter as one team trains more hours). Both are very good coaches. Your opinion is a coach needs a license(s) and that equates to pay level. It is not my opinion, or the opinion of many others. I like the supply and demand/market forces approach. The best coaches (as decided by the customers individually) can charge the most, if they desire, regardless of licenses. Most of the coaches I know are not in it for the money as there is not much $$ in coaching a team or two.
Most of the good coaches try to make it affordable for everyone, because they do it for the love of the game. I would speculate that Jason is talking about MTA coaches, where some feel MTA runs more of a business than developing players, especially on the girls side. It could be argued either way, but it is about what the kids and parents decide they want to do and who they feel comfortable with. And I think at times, parents forget that point. People need to remember, it is your child that has to deal with the coach 90% of the time, not you. Make sure they are enjoying the game, the coach and they are developing as a player. That my friend is half the battle, then everything else will usually work itself out and fall in to place. This will equal your child being much happier and your coach being worth the money you are paying for them.
By the numbers -
Let's say a competitive team trains year-round an average of 3x per week for an average of 90 minutes per session. That's a total of 234 hours (52 weeks x 3 sessions/week x 1.5 hours). If a player pays $3/hour for this training, and there are 16 players on the team, total coaching fees are around $11K. In MTA's case, this pays not only for a head coach, but also for an assistant.
Total outlay from individual families is $702 for the year for this coaching ($3/hour x 234 hours), and a coach is making $47/hour - if they were receiving the full coaching fees without an assistant.
In comparison, seems like the norm for many week-long soccer camps is around $150 for 15 hours (9AM - Noon, M - F). Residential camps are pushing $450. When you look at these numbers, $700 for a year-long training program seems reasonable, doesn't it?
Moreover, the $47/hour calculated above, though it might seem high for a full-time youth coach, only applies if there is no additional time spent by the coach at games, at tournament weekends, planning for training sessions, reviewing video tape, etc, AND if the coach can somehow teleport to and from all these sessions and avoid commute time. My point being there is a lot more behind the scenes work that coaches all over the country put in to help benefit their players' development.
God bless those who can teach the game, give kids a positive experience in soccer, and foster life skills through sport, all from the goodness of their hearts, or who are in life positions that allow them to make this commitment at little expense to their players' families. But it's just not the reality for the majority of those drawn to coaching, as most individual who commit the time as outlined above, can only do so with compensation.
Licenses or not, I've seen the positive impact a coach can have on his/her players, and as a parent, I would gladly pay $60/mo if my child was given an opportunity to enjoy a sport under capable guidance.
MA,
Well said.
And to think of all the BS they have to deal with. It is probably worse than any corporate job, but to teach and be around the game they love is pretty cool. Not to mention the free vacations around the US!! Most people work in jobs that they don't enjoy so they can make the $ to pay for their kids soccer. If a coach can make a living doing what they love, it is a great place to be. On the flip side, parents paying 10k+ a year for a kid to play soccer is insane. There has to be a better model than that out there???? Did I hear that the MLS cities and their youth clubs are much cheaper than what others are? Vikings stadium bringing MLS? Will that change MTA/MN soccer model?
Dim Wit,
So you believe parent coaches are fine, licenses are unnecessary and you feel MN coaches are better or as good as other coaches in the US OR international coaches?? Dude, get a freaking clue. I take it you were a MN coach who was also a parent coach who didn't have a license? Well, I guess you can't see the forest through the trees then. I am looking at it from a non coaching, unbiased perspective. "Most others" who prefer a "supply and demand" model? Who? the coaches such as yourself without licenses? Why don't you send your son/daughter over to me so I can teach them how to do math because I did math last year and I am pretty good at it. Oh, I want 10k to teach them too. Hows that sound? It isn't necessarily that the unlicensed coaches are bad, but it SHOULD HELP create demand and give credibility.
Jason,
Again, you respond with no support for any of your opinions. My point is blanket statements, which is all you seem to make on very little information or experience are dangerous.
It does not matter if we are talking, in this case soccer, or on politics, the economy, or religion. Your opinions are a mile wide and an inch deep. Your tactic for discussion is to raise a new argument instead of responding to counter positions on your first position/opinion.
I may be dim but at least that suggests the attempt at a thought. You explain why right and left wing radio shows drive the big ad revenues.
Cheers,
You are example A of why sound bites and
Jason,
Again, you respond with no support for any of your opinions. My point is blanket statements, which is all you seem to make on very little information or experience are dangerous.
It does not matter if we are talking, in this case soccer, or on politics, the economy, or religion. Your opinions are a mile wide and an inch deep. Your tactic for discussion is to raise a new argument instead of responding to counter positions on your first position/opinion.
I may be dim but at least that suggests the attempt at a thought. You explain why right and left wing radio shows drive the big ad revenues.
Cheers,
You are example A of why sound bites and
Dim and cannot type and post from phone......
BTW Jason,
As not to be a hypocrit my response to your message:
I am a soccer fan first and foremost, long before kids, and have attended more professional, US and European, matches than I would guess you have seen on TV based on the content of your posts. I sucked as a player but not for lack of effort. I was decent as a coach with a low level license.
NIce post MA
and remember clarity of a position is always better than seeking an agreement from two sides with opposing views
I’ve been trying to find an objective way of benchmarking MN’s performance at regionals relative to the other region 2 states – the best I can come up with is # of teams advancing to the semi’s out of pool play.
During the past 5 years, Minnesota has sent 5 teams to the semis; Ohio North and Indiana also have sent 5. We are behind IL (14), MI (11), KS (11), WI(8), OH-S (7) and MO (7). We are ahead of KY (3), NE (1), IA (0), SD(0), ND(0). No significant improvements shown for MN during this timeframe. Since we are the 3rd largest metro area in Region 2, in theory we should be outperforming everyone but IL and MI (and don’t try to tell me weather has anything to do with it, winter sucks everywhere in the Midwest).
Depending on how the draws go, this year I think we have a decent chance of sending 2 MN teams to the semis. IL, MI, OS and MO will still be tough to beat, but I expect KS, WI and IN will drop way down as they all had a lot of consolidation into their local ECNL clubs and don’t have the population depth backup. NE and KY will continue to have potential to surprise. IA, SD and ND will continue to be the teams everyone wants to draw in their pool play.
Interesting side stat: 80% of the teams advancing to the semis at Regionals for the past 5 years have been from the clubs now in the ECNL. This year more than ever, anything can happen if you advance to the semis.
"On the flip side, parents paying 10k+ a year for a kid to play soccer is insane. There has to be a better model than that out there???? Did I hear that the MLS cities and their youth clubs are much cheaper than what others are? Vikings stadium bringing MLS? Will that change MTA/MN soccer model?"
Amy, I believe we're one, if not the only "pay to play" country. It's the US mentality and I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future.
Some MLS teams may be funding youth development systems in their markets, and maybe that competition has in turn brought costs down across the board with other clubs forced to compete to retain/attract players, but I can't speak to that fact. I know for certain some were funding their US Dev Academy programs, but I don't know if that practice is still in place.
I hope that MLS will come to MN sooner than later, and I hope that it will lead a youth development program in which more serious/talented athletes can take part. The MTA model was about partnering with the local pro club and the benefits this brought to the young players interested. I still believe in those benefits. The Thunder organization was not financially stable enough to survive the negativity that accompanied housing a youth development system under its banner, but I don't think this will be the case if a more-established, MLS franchise came to town and did the same. With the growth, reputation, and support the league has seen across the country, the credibility this will bring - should a MN MLS team and the league itself say they're going to take the reigns of a youth development system - will quiet most naysayers, now more at risk of looking foolish/selfish/etc.
Wow, this blog has really died down. Boring! Come on people, it takes 2 minutes create a bogus gmail account and take a moniker to post.
Breaking down the bracket draws for the MN teams:
U19: dreadful draw, grouped with natl top 10 team in Eclipse (IL) and returning regional finalist Mockingbird (KY), at least you pulled SD.
U18: inheriting MTA’s old seed did no favors for SCV -- another terrible draw pulling Toro (NE) who have a strong chance to win it all, and also MO (most likely USYS Natl League contender Kopling ), MRL2 team will be also tough.
U17: another very tough draw getting the MO team who will likely be the favorite at 17 this year, but if can get past them Internationals (ON) and North Shore (WI) could be beatable.
U16: here is where we might see some relief. IL team will still be tough, but at least it won’t be Eclipse due to ECNL. OFC (NE) shouldn’t be underestimated but should be beatable. MRL looks like it will be the #2 ON team that is hot & cold. I think this age is still our best chance for advancement.
U15: difficult to tell on this one. MI is a good draw given Hawks and Vardar being out due to ECNL. KS and WI both have decent non-ECNL teams at this age, could come down to the KS game.
U14: Anytime you draw IA and SD you’ve hit the jackpot. This is a young age, anything can happen.
U13: Too young of an age to be sending to regionals IMO. Just have fun and enjoy the experience.
Net/net not much luck in our draws and will likely be a typical showing for MN at Regionals, will hopefully keep our streak alive of sending a least one team to the semis going.
U13 Rev - Tie
U14 MU - Won
U15 PL - Loss
U16 EP - Loss
U17 EP - Tie
U18 SC - Loss
U19 EP - Won
http://tournaments.usyouthsoccer.org/events/2012-Region-II-Championships/
Tough Regional tourney so far for the MN girls -- one real shot remaining to advance at U14.
Outlook as of close of day 2:
U13 (DKT): cannot advance
U14 (MU): well done so far, game tomorrow against MO will decide
U15 (PRL): technically not out yet, but need a win and some luck in the other game
U16 (EP): cannot advance, was hoping for more here from this group
U17 (EP): cannot advance
U18 (SCV): cannot advance
U19 (EP): technically not out yet, also need a win and luck in the other game
Regionals is still a difficult tourney even without the ECNL teams in, but results for MN looking very disappointing so far.
Ouch, very disappointing performance for MN @ Regionals this year. Aggregate record of 4-14-3, no teams advance, two second place bracket finishes and five last place finishes. Only one state had a worse record that MN, South Dakota.
Statistically, here is how the region states rank after group place in terms of average placement and # teams advancing:
#1 WI (1.5 avg, 4 advance)
#2 OH-N (1.86 avg, 4 advance)
#3 / #4 MI & MO (1.86 avg, 3 advance)
#5 OH-S (2.0 avg, 3 advance)
#6 IN (2.0 avg, 2 advance)
#7 KS (2.14 avg, 2 advance)
#8 IL (2.29 avg, 2 advance)
#9 KY (2.43 avg, 2 advance)
#10 NE (2.57 avg, 0 advance)
#11 IA (3.14 avg, 0 adavnce)
#12 ND (3.0 avg, 0 advance)
#13 MN (3.43 avg, 0 advance)
#14 SD (3.57 avg, 0 advance)
Population wise we should be consistently #3 or #4, so just really bad when you look at it from that angle. I also think this is a relative gauge of depth within each state when separating out the ECNL clubs.
As we seem to say every year – something needs to change, we continue to underperform. I am just the stats man and don’t have the answers, but we are heading in the wrong direction and know we can do better.
Test log in issues
Ahhh working again.
AA,
I may sound like a broken record on this but it comes down to lack of consolidation more so than anything. If you look at the clubs from the states near the top of the list they are consistent from year to year even this year with ecnl teams out.
We have enough strong players at most age groups but they continue to be too spread out to compete regionally. When MN gets over being so myopic and the best players come together we will finish 3-5th on average. Will not happen anytime soon....unfortunately.
Looks like we've taken a step backwards this year at Regions.
Has the ECNL weakened the teams we send to Regions?
Consolidation is certainly part of it. Minimally we’d need to consolidate the talent within a given district, but more likely still across the entire metro to be competitive again. Now, the interesting thing looking at the other state teams advancing, there is no one club that sticks out as the dominant program in each state (stripping out OH-N Internationals who is ECNL bound next year). This seems to point to the good old fashioned model of a high profile coach taking a team somewhere and building it up as the local consolidator at that age level, so I think consolidation is still more about the coach driving this vision bottoms up vs. a given club driving it top down (sound familiar MA?)
Preparation seems to be a part of it as well. Many of the other state teams advancing show National League, MRL, Disney & other national showcases, multiple Midwest showcases, etc. to prepare them for their runs at Regionals. Outside of MTA, most Minnesota clubs just don’t commit to this level of travel and preparation.
AA -
Agree, that a coach has a larger role than the club in consolidating talent. especially in the early years where most of the best teams form. Sure they add key players from U12-U17, but the core group developed from U8-U12 is responsible for starting the consolidation cycle which builds on itself YoY.
My point on the myopic view is that many parents/players in MN will not move to a strong team with a great coach because of the Logo the team wears. Instead of finding the best development environment, regardless of club, a large percentage of Minnesota's top players and/or their parents look for the best environment only within their club or across 2-3 clubs they deem "good."
Players and parents need to stop thinking about club(s) first and start thinking about training with like players and strong coaches first. This will lead to metro wide consolidation and place more accountability on clubs to deliver strong coaching and development.
Many Minnesotan's are Dustin Hoffman "rain-man" like and "only buy their underwear at Target" even though they could buy the same thing or something better elsewhere.
AA, Fully agree with the limited prep most MN teams have going into regionals relative to the competition.
i'm going to take a different approach to soccer in MN. I'm a bit confused why consolidation is the best idea. Why? So we can have one team compete regionally? What does that do for the development of the kids who don't make the top club or team at age 12? They then get "labeled" and don't get a chance to have excellent coaching or compete? I would rather have 5 or six good teams in the state who develop KIDS so they can move to the next level instead of one super team. The kids that are on the team that loses 7-0 don't learn anything and thus will not develop and lose interest in the game. The kid at 12 years old may not be good, but when they are 18 they may be awesome if they don't quit the game first because of poor development and coaches/clubs quiting on them. I've seen too many 10 year olds get labeled as the next great thing and that alone gets them on the team forever when in fact other kids would be passing them up at 15 years old if given the same opportunity. The goal should be to make soccer more competitive in the state first and that isn't done by consolidation. Consolidation does exactly the opposite of what other countries say how to develop youth soccer. The best way to raise the bar is to have better coaching and not rely on just taking the best athletes, but developing kids into the best soccer players. "Kick and Chase" soccer with fast athletes isn't going to win you anything beyond short term glory. Sadly, that is how we do it here in MN in many cases. Consolidate all the best athletes and play kick and chase and call it winning/great coaching/great soccer. Beyond a few coaches out there, few teach the game based on principals that say a FC Barcelona's "Cantera" does. They focus on skill and technique not obsession with size and strength. Help the youth understand the game. Not running with up and down the field like a track meet.
Jason,
We clearly do not agree, but I appreciate your point of view as it is held by a majority in MN I believe and it helps to understand some of the reasons for the negative opinions around consolidation.
My responses to your questions:
1. "why, so we have one team compete regionally?"
No, being competitive regionally is more the "exhaust" from consolidation not the reason for it. The reason for it is to have kids of similar ability, commitment level, and soccer intelligence all training together throughout the year. It is globally believed and agreed that the best development occurs when players train with a group of like skilled players. This holds true for the low end of the talent spectrum, the top .01% and all players in between.
2. "What does it do for the kids who do not make the top club or team by age 12?"
Per above, it creates a better peer training environment where their team is not built around reliance and coaching tactics which focus on getting the ball to the star players that are superior to the majority of the team. Ever watch a game with 1-2 star players on the team? the rest of the team defers to them and plays the game around them. Your assumption that every team but the best team at each age group gets lower quality coaching is a falsity. Within a club the second teams often have a fall off in coaching talent but that is life and life is not fair. At age 10-13 there are plenty of very good coaches but with or without consolidation you have to do your homework and seek them out. They may not be at "your" club at the level of play your child plays but they are out there well beyond the "top" teams. Your comment that the top consolidated teams at age group would win 7-0 is also inaccurate. These teams would not play at age level in-state they would play at talent level within the state (play up) if they played in state league at all once older.
Your comment "I have seen too many 10yr olds get labeled the next great thing and that alone gets them on the team forever WHEN in fact other kids WOULD be passing them up at age 15 if given the same opportunity"
Unless you can see the future or are one of the best young age talent scouts on the planet your comment makes no sense. You are stating you know for fact kids on the second team would be better at age 15 than the 12ish year old who is on the top team now because he was labeled the next great thing at 10.
Additionally, I do not know a coach of a high level team that keeps a player on the top team because of tenure if they are sure a better player is out there at the position. (technically, tactically, physically, mentally, effort, and commitment wise) they take the "outside" player without question if he/she is better in their view. You may not agree with the coach's view but your not the coach so it does not matter.
Consolidation is exactly what the other countries around the world in fact do, please research youth soccer development in Spain since you mention Barca. You will see they aggregate the top players at younger ages and much more tightly than in MN and the US at large. You play for free as a tightly consolidated player in top clubs outside the US and you get kicked out when a better player comes along.
I agree with you that we can use better coaches, there is always room for improvement and more top coaches at the youth level. That said you can find good coaches at all age levels in MN. I have had three kids in/through youth soccer in MN and they all had very good coaches most years. They also all played for different clubs at one point as coaching + training with equally skilled players was the primary decision factor at the young ages (when I and my better half made decisions where to play for them).
Dim Wit,
Once again you are missing the point. I don't even want to reply because you are already set in your ways and will not be swayed in any form. It is this arrogant bull headed approach that sends our program down the wrong path. As stated in an earlier post, MN by population should be doing better at regions/nationally. So what is the missing piece? We are not consolidating enough or are we not developing enough good soccer players? My approach is on the development side and not on the "pick 18 of the fastest kids at age 12 and develop them only." My stance is on kids at 12 who get "consolidated" to play with "higher level" players get a better opportunity to develop at that age than the kids who weren't selected in a group of 18 players. I want a larger "pool." So they can all develop. Those kids then at 12 who didn't get selected then don't get the best coaching or opportunity to grow in the next years by being challenged physically and mentally. Therefore, you will not know what kind of players could have developed as girls go through puberty. Then, those kids quit and we are left with very little to choose from in the state of MN. I don't agree with the NY Yankee approach to winning. I am more of a MN Twins guy. Don't tell me what other countries do ahole. I lived there until I was 16 and consolidation there is completely different than what you are suggesting here. If we consolidate in MN now the culture will not grow and the sport will not grow. We must do a better job to give more opportunity to EVERYONE who plays to be challenged and exposed to great coaching and higher level players. These kids (12) who get opportunities to play with better players improve. They then play with other kids who are on other teams and those kids improve. That is and should be our goal; to develop more average soccer players into great players. Not a select few at age 12.
Consolidation does not limit the opportunity of those on the second or third or 4th team as you suggest.
Why would you state consolidation does the exact opposite of what other countries do/teach when you know from living abroad that they do consolidate more and earlier than MN and the US? They just have a different/more sophisticated view in man cases of what talent is.
Your issue seems to be that you do not like the type of players being consolidated and the level of coaching. As I read your posts through again it seems you would support consolidation if the coaching was at the level you desire and the right type of players were consolidated.
I do not believe consolidation or lack there of addresses the crux of your real concerns after re-reading your posts..
I believe you need both in parallel to improve...consolidation and improved/deeper pool of coaches.
We are both stubborn in our views and that is good. Makes for good thought and consideration on ones own opinion. Don't think your an a hole because you oppose my views and question my statements and beliefs.
Cheers
I always laugh when I hear people proclaim "no consolidation". Virtually every club already consolidates - call them the "A" team and the "B" team, Red and White, Blue or Red, etc.... I don't hear those same people stating that their club should have 2-3 completely mixed teams at each and every age group. Same people who also don't mind if little "Jane" joins their kid's team from another adjacent club because she's good and can help them win. My guess is that "consolidation" and "recruiting" is acceptable as long as it is in someone's best interest.
Personally, I agree with Dim Wit. If you play basketball, how do you improve your defensive post game unless you play against strong offensive players - how do you improve your "take it to the whole" offensive game unless you are challenged by strong defenders. The same principles hold true in soccer. You get better by training against like skilled players. I agree that this process should not begin until the early teens (not aware of many teams/clubs that start much younger). Most of the top girls teams shuffle their roster every year - changing 2-4 players annually. In looking at recent history, the "top" local team by the team they reach U19 might have half the players that were on that team at U13.
@Jason - "Dim Wit" is just stating his opinion. It's cool to disagree, but why do you have to call someone an ahole? Seriously, man.
Play together nicely in the sandbox boys.
How about a high school thread? Or is this blog done?
new blog for 2013, let's behave!
http://minnesotasoccerblog.blogspot.com/
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