Monday, July 09, 2007

What happened? Where are we going?

Even 3 years ago, Wings SC were poised to be MN's top soccer club. With the recent updates to the gotsoccer.com club rankings, the Wings have officially slipped to #3 and have been surpassed by their next door neighbors PSA.

OK, gotsoccer.com may not be the best team ranking, but it does reflect relative club strength. Before anyone jumps on PSA being a 1 trick pony with 15 Boys, 3 years ago, Bangu was reliant on the original Tsunami Sota girls for club ranking points. Congrats to PSA.

If I recall previous rankings point totals, Wings have accumulated about 1/2 of the points they had just 2 years ago. I think most would agree that the former DOC Steve Bellis was instrumental in building the club to notoriety. Has his departure led to their slide? Can they recover?

I think most would agree that having a number of top clubs, focused on developing elite players and teams, is probably the best scenario for MN youth soccer. This post is not meant to dig at the Wings, or their current DOC or board, but to create a spot for discussion around what is next for MN club soccer. How will clubs continue to attract and develop top players and teams?

276 comments:

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Anonymous said...

anon 1:06pm - how do you know? give us insider scoop. if this is true which I won't be surprised, I would think this will be a good move for the team connecting with some knowledgeable people in soccer. I checked the Arsenal website and they are new club and could be a building block for future. Super Eagles going to bangue ain't necessary with their structure.

Anonymous said...

tomass - why? as a former parent of PSA - we were sick of big CC BOD trying to direct everyhting from top. MYSA supported PSA because of their rec program and MYSA is there for CCs. I can see the benefits of a small club like AR for SuperEagles. AR will obviously have less bureaucracy - less mombo jumbo - reduced fees, and no fighting an incompetent board. I moved my kid from PSA and have not regretted it since. Maybe if they moved from another club to arsenal, it will be different but with the current situation at PSA, they were stuck. goodluck to the team.

Anonymous said...

what is their website?--can't find it through MYSA's contact page. I googled it too and couldn't find it

Anonymous said...

www.banguwannabes.com

Anonymous said...

If we wannatobethere we would have.
we didn't wanna

Anonymous said...

The reason I know PSA SE are moving to Arsenal is because I'm good friends/neighbors with one of the SE moms. The boys were given Arsenal FC shirts at the SE year end party. It's a pretty definite move. One reason they are moving is they felt they weren't given enough Dome time by PSA due to racial prejudice. Not sure what the evidence is regarding this - - it's just something the SE mom said was being talked about.

Anonymous said...

hey PH, no need to throw out comments like that which can only cause bad feelings, but that's probably your other half's (EH) objective.

Anonymous said...

Hey, I know who you are.

Anonymous said...

ouch

Anonymous said...

That's fine. I haven't said anything I'm ashamed of. Everything I've written is true and what I have heard. I haven't said anything bad about anyone - - what's the problem?

Anonymous said...

Not enough Dome time? Where are they going to get dome time with Arsenal FC? Dome time is at a premium in every dome in the state, I seriously doubt race has anything to do with it.

Anonymous said...

I certainly hope race doesn't have anything to do with it. BTW, I think the SE boys are very talented and work hard for what they achieve. Not trying to cause bad feelings - - just trying to answer some questions. -- PH

Anonymous said...

Bundesliga fans -
the Aunschluss is coming!

Anonymous said...

Racism, I've seen alot, since we have joined the Super Eagles. And We are from a middleclass white family and I feel it.

Anonymous said...

In what ways?

Anonymous said...

Let's get back to soccer, after all this is a soccer blog

Anonymous said...

That's funny - - this IS a soccer blog - - yet full of personal jabs that have nothing to do with the game of soccer.

Anonymous said...

Hey,
Did you hear about the new Soap Opera? It called Soccer Minnesota Style. Unfortunately, it is a rewrite from a show that was on cable TV three to four years ago. Then it was called, JY’s Maplebrook/Urban Stars/Blaine other club team.

JY looking out for the development of his team, hmm knowing the history, I do not think so. Even if I did not know his history, I would question why he would shop his team to ARSENAL if it were in the best interest of the boys. AR runs that program. JY & AR wow now their a soap opera waiting to happen?

Just for the attack, I am not a Bangu parent, I do not have a U15 boy, but have been around soccer long enough to know JY. Good coach, defined as a person who trains an athlete or a team of athletes: a football coach.
Good Manager, defined as
1.
a. To exert control over "Managing the news . . . is the oldest game in town" (James Reston). "A major crisis to be managed loomed on the horizon" (Time).
b. To make submissive to one's authority, discipline, or persuasion.
2. To direct the affairs or interests of: manage a company; an agency that manages performers. See Synonyms at conduct.
3. To succeed in accomplishing or achieving, especially with difficulty; contrive or arrange: managed to get a promotion.
Is he a coach or a manager who exerts control over and contrives or arranges his team’s talents?

Anonymous said...

Hey anon 5:27 - You write with such resentment - possibly because your team always lost to JY teams??

Let me set it straight since I have experience of JY coaching my son - he an excellent coach. My son would not be the player he is today without JY teaching.

Which soccer have you been around for a long time, the rec league??

Your words lack wisdom and knowledge and must be based upon something else. I leave that to the blog readers to fill in :O)

Anonymous said...

This is all ridiculous! JY did this with his older son's team 3 times (MPB, TCF, Wings). This is the second time he's done it with his younger son's team (Kickers, PSA, Arsenal). He might be a decent coach, although I would say he excels more at selling his ideas than coaching and developing players. He absolutely does not have their best interest in mind...this is about control and power for him, not about the kids. Premier status can't go, have to start as a C3 team if he wants to be part of USYSA. He won't get more dome time, there can be no other reason except to satisfy his ego.

Anonymous said...

Hey anon 5:53 - You are wrong!!! Again resentment because of JY success? I know him personally and he always has the boys best interest in mind. Let's get off him. You must stay tune for further information. Please have your crying towel ready.

tomASS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tomASS said...

non 527- I am a JY fan, friend, and former teammate. All coaches will have their supporters and detractors. That is just the way it goes. I side on his positive contributions to this team, his former team and soccer in this state

The one thing I do agree with you is the concern regarding how the relationaship with AR will progress in the long term, but that is from my own personal biases against AR. JY has to live with it. I do not. I hope it is the best decision for the players' development.

Regarding dome time- yeah good try, but I'm not buying that excuse or the race card excuse. Excuses are like butts, everyone has them and they all stink. Provide factual reasons not excuses.

Anonymous said...

anon 5:53 PM - get your facts straight. name me where he has not been a winner? I've know JY for many years and he has served MN soccer well. I worked with him to rewrite state cup rules. Premier system from when we had D1 and also U9 and U10 system, he has nothing to be ashamed of excpet people who don't want to see dedicated hard working people - they are also called winners.

BTW, I know JY will not play the race card either. He works for everything he owns and teaches same to his players.

6 state cup champions is not bad...for any coach who does it for his ego. Wow - Even if he had the world's biggest ego, 6 times at regionals is no easy feat. If you must say something, let's not get picky but take pride that one of MN coaches is trying to get MN on the soccer radar.

Anonymous said...

JY can't have that big of an ego. I haven't seen his website yet.

Anonymous said...

Arsenal is true, 2 SE parents confirmed that. They did receive Arsenal T-shirts, which begs the question of illegal recruiting. Some of the players are not moving, another has moved. Jerry is a good recruiter, and uses others to develop his players, including bringing in trainers. He does not develop players. He does not play the race card although his compatriot has. 3 players J has recruited have turned them down, one parent told his player any premier team but SE, they did not like J. This probably occurs with many other teams.

There was an ugly scene between PSA board members and J and K at a Caribou where J and K were asked to leave because they began yelling at the board members. The board members were meeting with a parent representative without J & Ks knowledge but were tipped off.

Some in PSA did try to move J off last year, but it failed. Tomass can affirm J was disgruntled last year, and was scouting another club for the team. J and AR are former neighbors, one parent said ARs son is now on the team. No other confirmation on that. Many have said PSA let J & K go because of accounting irregularities, there have been accusations from some parents. However $3500 was returned to the parents at the end of the season. One PSA parent often seen on this blog, KC, tried to keep the player and his parents who are moving, from getting their share, but it remains to be seen whether those parents will get it or not.

AR has promised J & K a loophole exists to keep them at the premier level. I may be incorrect but if SE makes the finals of the State Cup they remain premier. This was the Bangu grovel rule passed last January in emergency session when Bangu began removing teams from Premier. This may be the loophole.

Who owns the USYSA National League slot?

OK, roll call, who will remember all of this 10 years from now when half these kids no longer play and the other half may be resigned to the adult rec leagues? 1 or 2 might make it past college, but the chances are against them.

And finally BA, why do you want this in your club? This is not like you.

Anonymous said...

As a PSA parent who has had a son with JY for 3 seasons, I think I liked it better when no one gave us credit for anything! No one ever thought we'd every amount to anything---
When someone told me about his blog, it was all about Bangu and Wings. I thought it was kind of weird that people got so worked up over things. I can't believe people have so much to say about us, both good and bad! Of course I prefer the good, but who wouldn't, right?!
Can people just kind of lay off and worry about something important like world peace?! Just let us do our own thing and let us mind our own business. And can we please remember that this all boils down to our children. I know I speak for all the parents of the SE boys. We care a lot about each others' sons as well as about each other (their parents). We're nice people like most of the people who write on this blog probably are. Please respect that we've made our choice for our sons and our families (it really is a family affair in so many ways). Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Hey 8:01 - You too are misinformed. I know the parent at the meeting with PSA board members Caribou and your view of the story is way off based.

PSA did not let the team go because of accounting issues - The team requested release from PSA. No issues with current set of parents either regarding accounting.

And finally I ask you, why do you really care about PSA SE to spread these rumors and misinformation?

Why do care if they go to AR and then question BA? What is really at issue with you? Need a counselor??

Anonymous said...

I think a whole bunch of people need counseling in this room...

Anonymous said...

JY and MA talked at regionals. MA brokered a meeting between JY and two Bangu people, Zahl and Storlien. The talk was about combining U15 teams to form a US Academy U16 team. JY did not want to lose control, even to the likes of someone like Storlien. That was his choice. Best interest of the boys? That's debatable. But Arsenal??? What??!!??!! Why not Bangu, keep his team and Bangu's team separate this year, form a US Club team with a mix of the top players from each group, and build to the future TOGETHER.

Too many egos is my guess. Too bad.

Anonymous said...

I think it is funny how Abboud shut down the girl's blog after his players got trouble at region camp. He couldn't spin his way out of it so he shut it down for a few weeks.

Anonymous said...

Hey Hey anon 5:46, oauspeaks calm down and read slowing...Does JY club jump, YEP! Does he win, YEP, never said he didn't. What one has to do with the other I don't know.

Based on past history JY, IMHO does not play well with others in a structured settings.

This time I'll make myself more clear. DON'T HAVE A KID WHO HAS EVER PLAYED AGAINST ONE OF HIS TEAMS EVER!! Thank god, just watch the drama of JY and crew twist people into knots. No resentment, just plain tired of the soap opera, once ok, but come on twice and with the same story line. I love how, if someone says something negative toward this guy they must be rec, gasp...Could JY be responding to rasism with elitism?

Here is a question for SE, how does moving the team to Arsenal help your team develop? They will get you dome space at a cheaper rate? They will help support the team with fundraising opportunities or a sponsor? Will they have specialized trainers coming in to help train? Will provide quality fields and referees? Will you retain your status.

Tomass, JY a good coach....well I guess it would depend on what your definition of a coach is. From what I've seen sounds like he's a good manager and salesman, but to give JY credit I've never seen a training session nor had someone I know participate in one.

Anonymous said...

Razz - Wrong on your guess, too many egos. JY looks out for all his boys. Yes all his boys. Why would he give the top team U15 to Bangu? This team has already proven it can compete at a national level as evident in midwest league. Why let Bangu ruin it??

It is not about egos. It is who has wisdom and I'd say JY has it.

Anonymous said...

Hey 8:59 - Glad to see you are trying to write more clearly cause you need it. Re-read what you wrote earlier. My comment still stands - your soccer understanding still plays out at the rec league. When will you jump to the big leagues?

PS - Why do you really care what happens to JY teams? You too need some counseling. Shall I make your appointment??

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:59 - I did not say the U15 team. I said team and that was in reference to what you were ranting about JY previous club jumping. Playing against that team. YOU should calm down and read more S L O W L Y. Is that better for ya??

Anonymous said...

Does anybody else notice that the teams with players, coaches, and parents that conduct themselves with grace and humility seem to never be the target of these kinds of discussions in these forums?

tomASS said...

razz - I don't know all the circumstances involved in the decision nor was I part of it in anyway. I know if I could have influenced the decision, my advice would have been the same as yours. I would have suggested Bangu as the best possible option for player/team growth and development from all the available options out there.

a former DOC member with the ability to circumvent a waiver petition because of how the actual rule is written, a person whose state soccer aspirations have been voted down numerous times, a person who gives a pre-election AGM speech that contains more me's and I's then a self-centered convention, a new club with nothing to offer besides freedom (hmmm) just does not seem like a good marriage. But, as I have stated before I have viewed this from the beginnig with a biased opinion. Good luck Super Eagles

Anonymous said...

I think the last time I saw this many people who were "anonymous" was at my meeting last week (I'm on Step 5). At least at those meetings you can look someone in the eye.

Anonymous said...

Hey 9:27 - Could it be they have not experieced success and therefore there is nothing to write about them??

tomASS said...

noitall - good luck getting to Step 6. I'm rooting for you ;-)

Anonymous said...

31/7/07 8:01 PM: Oh my God, you are so off-based and misinformed, I don't know whether to laugh or slug you! I'll do neither, I'll just wait for the mud slinging to stop, eventually it will as most people could care less about a bunch of spiteful lies and rumors...

Anonymous said...

8:01 Correction KC has not tried to deny any checks. Factual information. Thought all should know.

Anonymous said...

tomass - if I make it to Step 6 I'll treat us to pints.....oops, back to Step 1.

Anonymous said...

FACT-JY has shopped his teams around before.

Are you saying to be in the premier league you must shop your team around the TC? To be successful you must move clubs every two years? Does that really make sense to you?

I don't have a kid in the age groups even close to JY teams, they are no threat to me. 2 years after 3 years before. But it does sound like this attitude may be the reason the team has to move clubs so often.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:27 PM - Pride before fall. Soften up for the landing.

Anonymous said...

Anon - What has JY done to you to create such emotion in you?? We understand you do not have kids involved. So what is your reason?? What does it REALLY matter?? Leave the team and JY alone. Kids play better in the sand box.

FACT - PSA does not need a premier MYSA status. So get off this concern. Read the rule book. Watch some high level soccer. Come back in 3 years and then we can talk.

Anonymous said...

As a rival premier Coach I would just like to say how much we enjoyed competing against Coaches and Players.Knowing how good they are really helped us raise our game.They have raised the bar for u15 boys and probably beyond.Both Coaches and Players showed great sportsmanship against us,even when a key player got injured they never fussed,I tip my hat to Jerry and PSA S.E. Boys,it was fun as heck being on the same pitch as the back to back region semi finalists.

Anonymous said...

anonymous 10:14. Who are you? Why are you hiding behind an anonymous posting?

Anonymous said...

Abboud does not run the girls blog you moron. And mnsoccer shut it down when petty adults began taking shots at MA/Bangu by attacking kids. Is this what you guys really want to see? Come on. At the end of the day, adults can bash each other all they want. When you bring kids into the mix, that crosses the line. Nothing more simple than that.

Anonymous said...

bashing kids or holding them accountable for misdeeds

tomASS said...

anon1038 - same reason you are I suppose.
Dee-Da-Dee

Anonymous said...

I have had just as much success as J, probably more, over more years. I have developed more players, helped more kids gain access to college through soccer. I have developed more hard working, respectable, young men and women. I have taught players that team work, respect, sticking to your commitement, honor and honesty are more important that getting to the regional semi-final. He hangs around for a couple of years, then busts-out and leaves players and families in his wake. The parents that are chiming in supporting him are so blindly stupid, that someone should probably call child protection as they may be too stupid to parent. At the end of the day, none of these kids will be professional soccer players, so spare me all the drama. His focus is not on players, but his ego...sad!

Anonymous said...

Holding them accountable? In a public forum where lunatic parents run wild and rumor and innuendo abound? You're more of an idiot that I first gave you credit for. Maybe we should follow all the kids 24/7 and hold their youth soccer coaches responsible for every single one of their misdeeds. No, the people bashing the girls were not trying to hold them accountable - they were attempting to bash an adult or a club. I can see how you can’t see this though based on your posts.

I'm not going to go into it anymore here as there is enough negativity in the current debate. Have fun.

Anonymous said...

JY done nothing directed at me. MYSA made a rule change 2-3 years ago, saying that the coaches/players were no longer in control of their own destinies that most coaches/players/parents goals (which were short term) interfered with the development of clubs/teams and soccer in general. I agreed with them then and now. For those of us, not engrossed in the development of Johnny, and are trying implement long term goals, and raise the level of soccer thru out the State what has JY done to develop soccer. Let face it the development of soccer for one team to a national level can be done and has been done before. But can we in MN develop a program rival to Chicago Magic, Vardar or the Nomads? Has he created chaos, repeatedly that takes up energy and time that could be spent elsewhere?

MNF said...

You probably noticed I shut down this thread for the past few days. I am reopening it, hoping that everyone has cooled off.

Anonymous said...

I am sure that PSA has drawn some players fom the WIngs, added to the fact that Steve B. is gone and the success of Bangu in recent years .... looks like steam is building in the Bangu engine. WHy the better players would not gravitate towards the more successful teams with higher visibility is a no-brainer.

Anonymous said...

In 2007 Wings had 7 Premier teams, PSA had 3, and they just lost the
SuperEagles.

Anonymous said...

s/b Voice of (lack of) reason

Anonymous said...

Number of premier teams is no longer the measure. State Cup championships, MRL performance, top tournament performance are the measures.

BTW, the Wings probably are -4 of their 7 (2 19s done, 18s probably not playing, 17s relegated), while the PSA picked one up (13 boys). So for next year Wings 3, PSA 4 (unless the 15s leave, then its 3 to 3.)

Anonymous said...

PSA has had some very good results on the boys side in the State Tournament. I watched their U11 team play in the final yesterday. Woodbury was good too and came back to win the game in PKs. I must admit, we were club shopping and were there to watch the Woodbury team as we have a talented couple of boys looking for a place on the east side. What struck me was the total classlessness of the Woodbury coach. He was ejected from the game (though I don't know if there was ever a red card shown) for verbally abusing the ref, and it was clear from the sidelines that he was being a complete donkey.

Seeing this childish behavior from the coach sparks the following. Does anyone think Woodbury would even think about replacing a coach like this based on being a negative role model for the young players? Or, do you think a winning season makes poor sportsmanship excusable? I doubt the Woodbury parents would complain about the coach as long as the team is winning, and I doubt a coaching director has the balls enough to do something as again, the team is winning. The last is a blanket statement, not meant to point out the Woodbury coaching director but rather to ask if any coaching director would do something in this situation. In talking with others on the sidelines, this coach has had a history of disrupting clubs for personal reasons and was even kicked out of Bangu East. That speaks volumes about the type of person this coach is if Bangu kicked him to the curb. 

Any thoughts by the peanut gallery? I’m sure this is a common occurrence in many other clubs. Are we sacrificing developing good people in favor of stellar U11/U12 soccer results?

BTW, we’ve decided not to look at moving to this team… for obvious reasons.

Anonymous said...

anon 3:24,
Your numbers are off. Way off.

Anonymous said...

"Glad we saw the game . . .", I can’t really post details on topic so I’ll just say that your comments are insightful . . .

Soccer training is not about simply winning . . . nor is it about collecting the best group of kids in order to win. It is about training – soccer training for sure, but also training on how to handle life situations, adversity and individual/team tactics for achieving goals.

What you hope to see in a program is leadership and recognition of individual/team growth areas. You work hard on those growth areas and you improve – it is that simple.

Ask yourself the question – what is acceptable for a win?

Woodbury Parent

P.S. Tryouts are today (3-5 PM) for U12 Boys Bangu . . . hopefully we have enough interest to form an East team . . . the last one ended up in Woodbury. Hope to see you there.

Anonymous said...

Congratulations - Woodbury U11 Boys.

This is a great group of kids - don't judge them through the actions of others.

Woodbury Parent

Anonymous said...

anon 8:25,

It's great to see that you have an etch-a-sketch to wipe out all of the ethical b.s. associated with your club so that you can feel free to critique others. Bangfu has had all kinds of crazy ethical issues (start with the girls coaching directors) and you ought ask some serious questions about entrusting your children to those wackos before barking about a coach from another club. I heard the Woodbury coach was a bangfu coach before and that he couldn't get along with MA, which is not exactly a character indictment.

Anonymous said...

eponymous, your point was lost in the posting.

Anonymous said...

So is it ethical for the big south of the river club admin director who recieves 45K a year to also be the south boys district director?
Ethics don't seem to be in great abundance in many places in this state.

Anonymous said...

anon 11:13,

Happily it's easy to spell it out for you. The bangfu (anon 8:25) poster who wanted to encourage players to attend bangfu tryouts given the apparent tantrum by the woodbury coach should definitively do more homework regarding ethical nightmares in his/her own club before offering bangfu as an alternative to bad coach behavior. Ask around.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:27 you are a retard! The numbers are not wrong. Go look at the MYSA standings.

http://www.mnyouthsoccer.org/standsum/summer2007/standingindex.cfm

17 boys last place and religated, the 2 19s (boys and girsl) teams are no longer in premier, there is no U20 league. The 18s are a wait and see.

Anonymous said...

Woodbury Parent, we will judge YOU based on your inability to care for you child by allowing him play for a poorly behaved, out of control coach. Shame on you.

Replace your coach or switch teams if you really care about your child. I would say the same thing to any other parent regardless of club affiliation.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:25 doesn't have to ask around . . . witnessed it all first hand . . . and for the record, I don’t have a club . . . just a kid looking to play soccer without all the nonsense . . . so the first alignment is with the coach – the one person who has the most impact on the game and on attitude and behavior.

But, if a person did ask around, as you suggest, they might start to wonder . . .

How does one end up at Woodbury as a new coach to the program and get to take lead on the top U11 team?

How does that very same person get the same collection of winning kids that used to be Bangu?

A thinking soul might then have to ask what happened to the Woodbury coaching/player selection process?

Could it be that they were willing to break all their policies just to get back a winning group of kids? No, that doesn’t sound right – must be my imagination.

If a person “asks around” a bit more they might see a trend . . . hmm, didn’t that happen before U11 with the Bangu U14 girls team?

It would then really take a rocket scientist to discover that the connection between those two instances was the same parent coach, and the same soccer association – wow, what a coincidence.

Sure wish I had “asked around” before making the observation – darn.

Truth be told, nobody should be coaching their own kid(s) - period. That could lead to a hypothetical migration through clubs in order to maintain control. If it gets weird enough, you might go from, say, St. Croix to Bangu, So. St. Paul and then Woodbury. . . that could lead you to voice out against ODP, then for strongly for ODP . . . that would be pretty darn, um, weird . . . and we haven’t even “asked around” about a place like Shattuck.

So get off the nonsense about club morality – it doesn’t exist. Instead, start to focus on the coach that you put in charge of your kid(s). The original post was to suggest that training should be the focus - not winning at all costs. If that process takes a paid coach then so be it . . .

Anonymous said...

anon 3:06,

Exactly, take care of your kid -that is why you should select the coach, not the winning record potential.

Just because a coach has a winning record does not make them a good leader. Select the right coach and let the winning be what it is.

Woodbury Parent

Anonymous said...

anon 2:59,
We'll see who the retard is...

Anonymous said...

This coach (now in Woodbury at the U11s) has jumped from club to club. That should be a sign in and of itself. However, it is unrealistic to think that parents would migrate away from this team as, truth be told, we all want to be associated with a winning team. It is the Woodbury club's responsibility to try and police their coaches as they are responsible for hiring and assigning coaches to teams. It is the club itself that loses face with people like PB in coaching positions. His kid is talented, no doubt about it and a joy to watch on the field. But the parents and modeling seen will negatively impact all involved down the road.

Congrats to the boys on their wonderful season on the field. Look to the club to find a new coach for the team so that it is not ruined in the coming years. That is my best advice to you. If MA didn't get along with him, and MA gets along with most everyone, then that's a pretty clear sign that this guy is trouble.

Anonymous said...

MN Futbol....
Yeap, they cooled down and the convesation has elevated itself to name calling.

IMHO it show a true lack of intelligence to call someone retarded. Please don't insult the mentally handicapped.

tomASS said...

yeah - I don't appreciate it. Of course I have a hard time determining when I have been insulted.

sorry goal post - I couldn't resist... ;-)

I do agree with the sentiment.

Anonymous said...

I think this topic is pretty much over. Time to move on.

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