The Sunday 5/17 MN State Cup U13 Girls semi final game between MTE13GC101 (U12s playing up) and MTA13GC101 ended with a bit of controversy. According to the MTE13GC101 coach's statements in his own blog:
"I told them I was so proud of their efforts, but I wanted them to step up and pass the ball to the U13 GK when it was their turn to shoot. "
This has stirred up many questions about ethical behaviour. Some are speculating that the MTA13GC101, Coach AK, may have known what was going to happen as well. There seems to be more bloggers chiming in with strong concerns about Coach MA's decision. Still a few are defending his actions.
The MTA "club" has tried to distance themselves from the controversy by stating on their web site:
"The MTA Executive Board is aware of an incident at State Cup this past weekend. It was a coach's decision that came into question; an individual decision, and it was not supported by the club. We are looking into it further to deem whether any disciplinary action is needed."
What could be even more disturbing is that Coach MA may have informed the team parents of his plans, during the previous winter. If true, why wasn't anything done?
What's next? What will MYSA do? What will USYSA do? What will MTA do?
1,023 comments:
1 – 200 of 1023 Newer› Newest»Anonymous said...
Rather than punish his players, perhpas that high integrity coach could simply seek a match against an opponent who would fight to the finish. The rules allow for that...
21/5/09 1:32 PM
Anonymous said...
One coach screwed up badly, no question about that.
Now people want to penalize the opponent who did nothing wrong?
And on top of that penalize another team of girls the following year?
Get a grip people...use some common sense.
21/5/09 1:33 PM
tomASS said...
Tock-Tick 123 - never convicted him, offered an opinion of what I thought. Circumstantial evidence when served in significant portions does end up convicting many. Your statement would be more convincing if there was any evidence to at least indicate options that he knew nothing about what was going to take place.
I do not know Andy. I have no bias against him. I do have bias against cheaters. I hope for his sake he didn't know
21/5/09 1:35 PM
tomASS said...
133 - it would be penalizing the U12 team that cheated this year next year They have time to decide if the MTA program provides them more than just the road to regionals.
It would penalize the club for not establishing higher standards and thinking things through when you have as many teams as they did in this one group that situations could arise.
21/5/09 1:40 PM
Anonymous said...
All of us (especially MTA leadership) need to remember it's about the KIDS, not the club. The kids make the club, not vice versa
21/5/09 1:47 PM
Anonymous said...
From what I've heard the club does have a coach's code of ethics in place.
You can't be at every game every minute monitoring over 100 coaches involved in a club.
What the club can do is sanction the offending coach along with MYSA sanctions.
21/5/09 1:50 PM
Anonymous said...
There should be consequences for the coach who broke the rules, without punishing the players
21/5/09 1:52 PM
Anonymous said...
Let's give the club time to act of this. It will be interesting to see their course of action.
I don't think MYSA has weighed in on this yet either.
Both of the organizations have volunteers running things and it takes time to get together to sort through an issue like this. It's not like these people are full time soccer employees.
21/5/09 1:54 PM
Anonymous said...
tomASS,
so based on your 1:35 post, you are guilty of circumstantial evidence until proven innocent? Thank god you don't run the justice department.
21/5/09 1:54 PM
Anonymous said...
anon 1:52,
That would be the most logical thing to do.
Because it's the most logical action and we're dealing with MYSA expect something else.
21/5/09 1:55 PM
Anonymous said...
Thank goodness trials aren't held in blogs. :-)
21/5/09 1:55 PM
Anonymous said...
Even if you monitored people 24x7x365, humans make mistakes. Sometimes blunders.
21/5/09 1:57 PM
tomASS said...
nice twist on words - I'm basing my opinion on circumstantial evidence
My opinion is not a conviction of fault. Sure wish there was something even circumstantial to alter my opinion.
21/5/09 2:00 PM
i wish people had this much passion towards the political process in the state and washington. we are ignited in a passionate debate about a u12/13 girls soccer game while the state and the country is robbed blind (by both parties). if you really are concerned about the 12/13 year old's fragile future, get involved in politics! not trying to make this a political blog but just keep this in perspective!
2:13 I disagree. I think this is an opportunity to show kids that cheating is wrong, and that adults have consequences for their actions or non-actions (coaches, club and parents.)
I do agree that both parties are robbing us blind though!
My prediction on actions:
* MTA team that advanced disqualified
* 2nd place teams from Group A (PRL13GC102) and Group D (EDI13GC01) play new semi final Friday 5/29 with final moved to Sunday 5/31
* MYSA updates coach’s code of conduct form to specifically include reference to game fixing or pre-determined outcomes and the penalties.
* MA banned from MYSA controlled events for 2 years
* AK banned from MYSA controlled events for 1 year
* MTA fined $5000 by MYSA
* MTA parts ways with MA
* Parents who knew, but did nothing, apologize to their kids for not taking action.
It all boils down to one simple thing. Throwing a game is NEVER okay. Regardless of whether the motive was noble or manipulative, players deserve impeccable ethics and sportsmanship from their coaches.
The U12 coach seems to realize the seriousness of his mistake, has admitted it, and apologized. http://www.roadtoregionals.com/97-journal/week/2009-05-17-to-2009-05-23 That is a step in the right direction, but does not make the problem go away. Manipulating tournament results can NEVER be tolerated. Hopefully there will be individual consequences that reflect the gravity of the offense, while considering positive contributions the coach continues to make toward youth development.
I am cautiously optimistic tournament games can still results in sending the best players to Regionals. …rather than succumb to all the noise, emotion, and old haters club eagerness for sweeping vengeance.
We should be a lot less concerned with 11, 12, 13 year old tournament results than with producing girls that play like Marta.
Agreed regarding tournament results, but ethics at least as important as skills and tactics. Marta is the complete package
Hopefully the state can discipline the individual coach's mistake, and ensure the tournament sends the best PLAYERS to Regionals.
How about banning blogs by coaches and no further consequences? Then we'd quit being punished.
I think we are all waiting for AK to man up and admit his role in all of this.
He could say that he knew all along and was complicit in the decision. Maybe he knew but objected and voiced those objections to MA. Maybe he knew nothing about it at all.
I for one would take him at his word. There would be enough others that know the truth that if he lied publicly, he would lose all credibility with those people. My guess is this is the reason he has not yet denied complicity.
He did not cheat to win.
I don't know the guy, but he is obviously a very good coach to have a U12 team getting to finals against a U13 team from the same club.
The kids will recover; the parents who had kids on the other teams that lost to the U12's obviously won't.
Not only did AK not cheat, there was nothing he or his players should have done differently except play their best soccer.
"Honey I think we should move little Mia out of the local CC - I like coach Niceguyneverplayedsoccer but I think she's outgrown him."
"I agree lets look at some other clubs except of course that MTA."
"Why not MTA?"
"Because one of their dozens of coaches threw a game."
"Well that's horrible - why'd he do that?"
"To send another team in his club to the finals of the state cup."
"You mean they had two teams in the same age group in the state cup?"
"Yup."
"What's their phone number?"
splitsville
2:52 you are delusional. That being true, not 1 kid will leave that club over this. Parents outwardly will appear to not care about the ethics/judgement of the adults they entrust their children to, only the win loss record. Why is society screwed up?
243, your wrong he cheated the kids out of an excellent experience in hope to send the stronger team to regions to put another feather in the clubs cap. Can you imagine the recruiting appeal for the club to be able to say another one of their Academy teams won Regions at U13. They were hedging their bets with the older team. Thats the sad truth In my honest opinion.
252's satirical post is funny - I would love to see how many would leave MTA because of this. Not many is my opinion.
The bigger message is that the importance of the opportunities that might be afforded to parent's little Martas is far more important than the sport itself.
I personally would love to see EP beat whomever they play and end this story with a proper exclamation point
Maybe Mark took Nike's, MTA's major sponsor, slogan "Just Do It" a little too far
mn futbol brings up a good question in his foreword to this thread,
Was this discussed with the u12 parents during the winter. Did Mark reveal his plans earlier on in the team training and preparation process?
If so, was Kool-Aid also served? If served, was it in Full 90 drinking bottles or MTA coffee mugs?
Anonymous said...
We should be a lot less concerned with 11, 12, 13 year old tournament results than with producing girls that play like Marta.
21/5/09 2:26 PM
This is the best post yet!!
I'm sure the USA Soccer Lab is close to patenting a formula for this. ;-)
It is a solid point, just having fun
I wonder how involved Marta's parents were with her soccer training?
and yet she still managed to rise to the top?
Now watch, my ignorance to her development will show she had helicopter parents.
trust me, the kids are over it, the parents are fine, and beleive it or not, they are fighting to keep MA as their coach. the only ones who seem to have their knickers in a twist are the folks on this blog who have no actual personal involvement in the whole ordeal. but isn't how it usually works....penny for your thoughts, but every body wants to give their two cents.........
oh by the way 2:52, that was 3 of the 4 state cup semi-finalists coming out of ths same club....might want to put MTA on speed dial.
Anonymous said...
243, your wrong he cheated the kids out of an excellent experience
Come on, Regionals is just another tournament, so it has a title blah blah blah, but to say he cheated little Mia from a "Excellent Experience" is pushing it. You just gotta Win Win Win Win, it this team is as good as being said, then your Excellent Experience will come later on.
355 - young kids are always resilient.
With all due respect, if one was to have a discussion with them about what happened, what do you think that player would say about the incident? Was any lesson learned? If so what?
Thank you
Hey parents of this team...You dont see Rory Dames or any of the other DOCs around the COUNTRY using your dd on a blog. That is kinda of scary if you ask me. This coach mite be a good coach, but his ethics are not in the best taste. A blog, throwing young girls names out there, his thoughts on this and that..SICK in a bad way. MTA should tell this coach to knock off the blogging, unless he signed a contract saying he could use the MTA title and teams name sake for his own personal agenda.
257, why don't you think someone would leave over this?
For tomass, from the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/magazine/05marta-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&sq=kicking%20off&st=cse&scp=1
The next morning, she told me how, in a span of just a half-dozen years, she made the journey out of her remote town in the northeast of Brazil, where few girls even played soccer, to the pinnacle of her sport. “I had to do all of it by myself,” she said through a Portuguese interpreter. (She speaks Swedish fluently and, according to her new teammates, is rapidly picking up English.) “There wasn’t anybody for me to follow, or anyone to say to me, These are the steps you must take. First of all, I was almost always the only girl playing with boys in a small town. Some boys accepted me, some didn’t. And my family had comments made to them. Brazil is still a very macho society, and sports are mainly for boys, so people would say to them: What is this girl doing? Why is she always out there in the soccer games with the boys?”
Marta grew up in Dois Riachos (which means “two little rivers”), a town of about 13,000, as the youngest of four children. Her father left the family not long after her birth, and she has no memory of him. Her mother worked for the local government. There was no organized soccer for girls, so at the age of 10 she joined the boys’ team at her school. “But even the boys’ league was not that structured,” Marta said. “We trained a couple of times a week, but otherwise, we played on our own.”
She played soccer on the town’s narrow streets or in local parks and other open spaces, usually pickup games involving just a handful of players. Because Dois Riachos is in an arid region, some of the bigger games were played on sandy river bottoms, which are dry for all but a couple of months a year.
"to err is human; to forgive is divine." Alexander Pope
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet because there are to many posts to read them all. But I remember an Illinois Eclipse team letting another team tie them in pool play at the National. It was even filmed an put on utube. I was wondering what punishment that coach, team, club received?
4:06..the answer to this is on the other thread. just so you know, so you can get your facts straight, it wasnt a tie, nothing was done because nothing was done. And there are alot of things that YouTube didnt show. Nothing was done wrong.
From the NY Times article on Marta (talking about playing soccer as a child in Brazil): “But even the boys’ league was not that structured,” Marta said. “We trained a couple of times a week, but otherwise, we played on our own.”
Boy, THOSE were the days. Amazing how someone can train a few times a week and play on their own, and become the best woman player in the world.
Compare that to the MTA's overly-structured, overly demanding, overly ego-serving, soccer-only regimen, and you wonder whose fantasys are being fulfilled by the whole deal.
THAT's the problem.
thank you 403 even though it is from the NY Times, I am now better informed. Appreciate it!
404 - but he didn't indicate that punishment shouldn't be used.
I forgive my kids for their errors, but it doesn't mean they didn't serve a punishment if it was necessary
AMEN 417 AMEN!
well tomASS then I guess you can write your own famous quotes.
you mean I haven't yet??? I'll keep trying ;-)
not sure if anything you've said would even qualify for a bathroom wall (at least those can be creative).
415 - IMHO - the game / sport of soccer was shown great disdain for the way this game was played.
prediction #1 - by the end of the day this new thread will have in excess of 100 posts.
prediction #2 - of those 100+ posts, maybe 2 or 3 will actually be from MTA people or were involved in the incident.
422 - I'm sure you have advertised or have had others make you famous on the ones I've seen.
Do you tap dance with Larry Craig??
Abboud screwed up. He's admitted it.
I'm sure he'll be sanctioned by the club and the MYSA.
He'll accept the medicine and that should be it.
To penalize teams or players who had no role in this act doesn't make sense.
MA's blog said MTA was meeting on it last night, and he participated by phone. Why no word yet? Negotiations underway with MYSA? Anyone have any hard news to report?
I heard they are clearing everything with their attorney before releasing any information.
The root cause of the problem is that the mentality of MTA puts the club ahead of the kids.This is common knowledge and has been going on for many years. It's this mentality that enabled the cheating. This never would have happened if the directors would have done their job.
Cheating is never ok period. Those making excuses for the cheaters are just as bad as the offenders.
The first thing that should happen for the good of the club should be the resignation of the directors. They are the people resposible for allowing a cheating atmosphere to develop.
Sorry...but both teams should be tossed and both coaches fired.
There is no excuse for cheating. Cheating is wrong period.
nothing like attorney's involved in youth sports.
Really says so much about our society now days
433 - unless your an Obama treasury appointment that can't figure out the tax codes
We now read a lot of speculation about what the result should be, and appears we've covered the waterfront. I'm more interested in the process right now.
Question for comment: Is Moriarty/MYSA required to consult with USYS before issuing sanctions because it is the National Championship Series tourney?
Question for comment: We know that MTA was meeting last night -- any word as to whether MYSA has held any meetings?
Question for comment: If either MA or AK offers his resignation, IHYO should MTA (1) accept it; or (2) refuse it and then fire him? Different result for MA vs. AK?
My prediction MA will get fined 100 dollars for throwing the game. End of story. There will be no terminations/letter of resignations. It was a soccer game and hes a paid coach, a good coach from what ive heard. He made a mistake $100 fine and thats it. Thats my bet
If MA leaves MTA, all of the U12's (kids and parents) will follow him without question.
Follow him and sit out his 2 year coaching suspension. Welcome back in 2011 to the u-14 Thunder team.
4:33 Does cheating include guaranteeing positions year after year like we were subject to at the local CC. Yes your child is good enough to play on the top team, but you weren't here last year so she plays down. Actual conversation.
So we went to Bangu.
There is no problem. This is one incident. Get over yourself. BTW how do you know the "metality of MTA" honestly did your kid ever play for them. Or did she try out and not make it.
And I do know the "mentality of the CC" its called nepotism and mediocrity.
And there is no excuse for either. Period.
4:42
Ya...they Could start a club and cal it the Minny Cheaters.
He could have thrown the game in many different ways and not got this scrutiny:
1. Told the girls to shoot the ball hard but wide or high
2. Put weakest players at defense during the game
3. Change up all positions
What he did was let them play, and then bow out with an obvious forfeit, with the girls still saving face. Was it wrong? I am not in a position to decide. But I was there, and at THAT moment, I thought it was classy. Sure, I can Monday morning quarterback and I see now how it was a bad choice, but this kind of thing happens all the time. MA just did it differently than most.
While they are at it Mta should fire a couple of other coaches who put their own priorities ahead of the kids.
4:46 get on here and defend your guy don't make up fantasies and attempt to pass them as truths.
maybe your kid wasn't good enough for that team. In that case, to massage your bruised ego a white or gray mta team will do. stop hating, it's not healthy
Aren't 3-4 of the "white teams" in State Cup finals this weekend?
People usually cheat to win, not cheat to lose.
Tick-Tock 523 - He manipulated the true competitive outcome so another team could win, which just happened to a team from the same club he is from.
Also -typically point shaving is considered cheating by losing
500 - saying someone who disagrees with you is "make(ing) up fatasies" is wrong. stop hating, it's not healthy
5:00 - go build a trophy case for your DDs participation ribbon.
446, there is more politics (Nepotism and other stuff) in Bangu/MTA than any community club.
Yes the parents knew MA was going to let the 13's win, they didn't know exactly how and the truth is they did object to this during the meeting in the winter unlike the article says. They objected very strongly and some felt trapped. I think some of the parents were hoping he wouldn't do it, but many knew he would. I for one thought he would adjust his lineup to make it easier for the 13's to score but when they went into a shootout I thought maybe he's going to let it be decided on the field.
607 - thanks for the candor and allowing us to know some of what was going on and what was being thought by the parents.
This is a very close knit club. Did anybody on the Executive Board have advance info that the game was going to be fixed if needed.
Who knew what when?
5:55 - way to back that up with some excellent examples. Just state it like because like you know its like the truth man.
BTW - who is more likely to have more nepostism a CC in which the coach has ties to the community or a club that has paid coaches who are paid to win.
Don't want you DD's coach to be paid on results. Stay in the CC you will get what you paid for.
so who took the pens,tricky,speedy,squeaky,titchy,tiny,spider,come on who?
MA is not getting fired, you can bet on that. The news will be out shortly.
It always makes me chuckle. It's always just a matter of time before the "your daughter must have been cut by MTA" appears-priceless.
sorry 6:34 over the years I've seen countless times a younger or older sibling is taken on a team at Bangu/MTA to get the kid they wanted. Political decisions are more likely as a means to an end, the try to win at any cost or corner cutting.
7:41 I guess it always makes me chuckle when someone says
" "It's always just a matter of time before the "your daughter must have been cut by MTA" appears-priceless."
priceless.
7:47 - countless times? really countless?! Not two or three or ten but countless - that must mean it happened on every MTA/Bangu team for years... That has got to be some serious fantasy world you live in.
And I always chuckle when someone shows their maturity level with a "I know you are but what am I" zinger, like 7:54.
Now go to bed children.
And I always chuckle when someone shows their maturity level with a "I know you are but what am I" zinger, like 8:18
this is better than the walleye opener.
tomASS,
as far as I am concerned you can no longer comment on this - you confirmed the earlier rube's point about you being bias when you post things like "AMEN 4:17"
you clearly bring an anti-MTA sentiment, not surprising based on how much you suck up to EP, and so those who are truly being objective shouldn't take you seriously.
I think that pehaps EP should have to beat the U13 MTA team, because isn't this supposed to be about SENDING THE BEST TEAM FROM MN TO REGIONALS????? Or they would prefer to "teach everyone a lesson about cheating" (which oh by the way makes them the state champs without having to compete for it)
I thought the whole problem here was you were all outraged there was no actual competition??? Yet you want to give EP a free pass.
the hypocrisy is DRIPPING from this blog.
When is MA appearing on Jerry Springer?
Probably a studio audiences full of shills too.
What was the reason MA did this in the first place. Does anybody know?
Just curious.
I know as a fact that in the last couple years MTA took a sibling who was mediocre at best just so her sister would play for them. Don't know about any financial considerations though.This kind of thing shouldn't happen in youth soccer. But. it does happen when the club is placed ahead of the kids.
I belive one of the directors knew that there was a possibility of this happening. Ask them and see if they fess up.
You don't hear much from SSM and crew anymore. Seems they have their own blockbuster scandal to deal with.
besides the sibling issue how about the "waived fees" not based on need then not letting the other team parents in on it, the fact they are subsidizing players not on need based scholarships really not ok.
anyone else notice there are lots of drooling goobers here tonight with kool-aid induced hate? their guy makes a mistake, everyone else gets blamed and blasted.
We can dream of a world where kids would be genuinely proud of what their parent’s post, and how they behave at events. I personally need
to improve, but for now we can dream...
Tick-Tock 849 learn to make sure you have read everything.
My amen was to the ideal that it does not take overly structured programs to produce the best players in the world, yet parents everywhere, not just MTA, are always looking for the Holy Grail system of success.
I have stated numerous times it is my belief that EP would rather beat the best team in order to go to regions. As a coach I would not want circumstances of team disqualifications assisting my efforts. I can provide actual evidence to that fact so as not to appear preachy.
I have also stated numerous times I do not think the U13 team and player should pay any price.
I think you need to check yourself for ticks because one has you right where it counts and it's cutting off the blood supply to your brain.
9:04 - i got news for you - I know as a fact that some coaches in CCs will play their daughter as striker even though she couldn't finish a sandwich let alone a breakaway.
I just witnessed this in a scrimage about 3 weeks ago. Please save me the "your lying" crap because if you don't believe me - than you're a moron to debate me.
I have saw what I have saw. Parents get into coaching and they take care of dd 1st, her friends second and to hell with the team. They don't honest believe that they do this (and they don't try to do this), but they do and they are not good soccer coaches. They are carpenters, lawyers or whatever and problaby great it it. I do however commend them for coaching because I believe they have the kids best interest at heart.
But IMHO a parent should only coach the in-house league. I can think of 2 exceptions to what I have just said, but it is 2 out of a whole bunch.
I wish there was another option to CC or MTA. I wish it were another organization like MTA. Competition is good, for everyone.
I think CCs have started to move away from the parent coaching which is good. I think MTA has problems, but if MTA went away MN soccer would take a serios hit in both reputation and competition.
As for politics - how about this. You don't want to leave the CC but your kid is 2 levels above the other kids in the CC at that age. You move her up 2 age groups in tryouts and of course some player two years older gets cut if she makes it. The player who will be getting cut was on the team for five years. Do you think no politics will be involved in this decision for the CC?
9:00 - Regarding motive, there was a similar scenario last year with a team playing up and winning MN State Cup. The girls played their hearts out in Regional pool play but struggled at that level. Parents in the hotel lobby encouraged them with, “What a great learning experience. Think how much easier it will be next year since you know what to expect.” In some ways losing might have been disheartening, but I am guessing none of the girls would have preferred to throw their state cup final match. Regardless of good intentions, the U12 coach made a mistake.
There are so many other ways to subtly influence the outcome during field play, if a coach wanted to be intentionally devious. I wonder if the U12 coach was trying to do something noble, and just totally screwed up?
9:04 Competition is definitely desirable, but frankly MN doesn't have a population of 32+ million to draw from like CA-South. Not sure how many academies the MN population can form.
No matter what color jersey kids wear, grouping players of similar abilities/drive together on the same team allows them to raise their game to a higher level. Not all kids/parents want this level of commitment, but at least the option exists SOMEWHERE in the state. For the kids who want it, let's be happy for them and hope they excel. It’s not like any players were “stolen” from CCs, since nobody owns the kids. Let’s let them play and hope they can represent our state well at a regional and national level.
If only technology would allow automatic copies of our posts to our mothers, spouses, and children. Just imagine all the powerful productive discussion the BLOGs could contain. Goodnight all.
9:42, what club did not put your dd on the team you wanted? (don't answer you are already embarrassing yourself and her) so when MA's kid is old enough to play should he quit coaching? There are good and bad coaches some parents some not. Playing your kid as a coach you always have losers like you questioning your motives. I'm sure you do nothing for the club and team but offer your subversive second guessing of the motives of others. You actually fit the profile for being the poster boy for what's wrong with youth soccer, I deeply feel sorry for your kid (s).
947, Noble wouldn't be the words I'd use to describe why he threw the game. MA believed the 13's would have a better chance at regions thus wanting them to represent the Club at regions. He also wanted to avoid the mess that the previous years loss by the current U14's had left. It caused a lot of problems between the parents and the former coach. Very Ugly! It's funny how he never mentions that as a reason.
You've got to love a serial blogger who watches from a distance and then like a vulture or hyena swoops in when there is "wounded prey". Welcome back tomASS and how are things with WH and EP?
ps - nice gay-baiting, very classy (although I'm sure the response will be that we are the one's drawing that conclusion - how very Wanda Sykes, Rush Limbaugh, etc...)
If MA is suspended for 2 years (which would be a shame) and if his U12 girls follow him, would it even matter? Getting out of this high-priced structured play would be the best thing for these robot girls.
Bloggers rolled their eyes at my comments last fall on this topic and responded with things like, "Please." Marta is yet another prime example. Our young players should be at the park, playing with friends, playing with strangers, playing with whomever.
It should be revealing that 95% of the most talented players in MN, from the Thunder to the top U18 and U17 boys teams, are minorities, who didn't develop in the highly-structured club-first systems with over-priced coaches who teach unethical behavior.
So if these girls take off for 2 years until 2011 when they're U14, more power to 'em. Go to the park. Play with boys. Play for free. Have more fun. Develop better skills. "Yeah right, please, would never happen, could never happen."
mama mia - do you have a child playing currently? if so, are they in a structured program of any kind? Also, based on your statistics, that would mean only one (1) player on these teams is not a minority. did you take statistics with socmom?
11:08 -Wayne is great, don't know about EP since I'm retired from coaching. I've had to focus on some other priorities. Hey but thanks for asking.
Prey being wounded or not I will I will stir the pot. I don't think I have personally attacked Mark or Andy. I have only stated opinions about the situation at least one of them has created.
Actually came back when good people like sweeper, westsider, and mrs. robinson posted again.
Wanda and Rush - ewwwww to both. I prefer Dennis Prager, Bill O'Reilly, Laura Ingrahm and Glen Beck. And yes, I believe many environmental theories are overblown, I drive a gas guzzling SVU and I am a member of the NRA
Does anyone have knowledge of how this was dealt with in the past? We can't be the only state that's ever had this type of scandal in State Cup. What were the punishments then and by whom? USYSA? State Assn? both?
my kid got relegated from a blue team
went to a different club
this year played 2 empire teams at state cup
when i explained this scenario
and asked for an opinion about the ethics
much to my surprise ,
supported the director/coach's decision
lc
lc, would that be the decision to throw the game? the decision to admit it was wrong after the fact? or the decision to blog about it many moons ago, thus providing all the evidence to hang him from his own tree with his own rope? Read the FIFA Fair Play Rule - this was clearly wrong in the eyes of anyone who cares for the kids and loves the game.
To MTA Exec Board - from Mulan II: “Dishonor! Dishonor on your whole family! Dishonor on you … dishonor on your cow …”
i agree with you , but my kid asked why they played the game at all, citing club's choice!
lc
was agreeing with 12:15 not mulan
lc
9:42 p.m. -
"I wish there was another option to CC or MTA. I wish it were another organization like MTA. Competition is good, for everyone. "
There are other options to MTA that are not CC. There are TC Fire (especially for girls), Kelix, and Arsenal to name just three...I'm not sure if NESA is considered CC or if there are other options out there.
That said, MTA has a good thing going, if you can handle the competition. "Competition" in this case determines what team - if any - your child makes, how much playing time they receive, the level of commitment required of your family for training and out of town tournaments, and whether or not you can flip the bill for it all. You can likely independently find better training or a single team elsewhere but it's hard to find a comparable "program" of this caliber, comparable under such an organized umbrella. With organization come overhead...with overhead comes added cost...the vicious cycle/circle...
From what I know of MA, he's a good guy and means well for his club and girls. I'm not a parent on his team, nor am I a parent within MTA. But chill out all... OK, he made a decision to throw a game. THAT IS NEVER A CORRECT THING TO DO! Regardless of the reasonsing behind the decision, it is plain wrong! This decision, however, was made with many pros/cons and reasons behind it. MA did NOT intend to hurt his girls. He did NOT intend to sacrifice his reputation. He was NOT being an elitist-MTA director that others want to position him to be. He made a decision that he thought was fair.
Unfortunately, in the context of this game, MA was not a Supreme Court Justice nor God; he was merely a coach. Coaches coach teams to win. He violated that "rule". If the team (girls+parents) is OK with losing -- with throwing a game -- then so be it. I would not be happy if I were a parent of a girl on his team...but I'm not. I would also not be happy being a parent on the U13 team that won via forfeit, but a win is a win...and those U13 girls still need to beat EP in the finals. So, good luck to them!
Like the rest of you, I enjoy this drama in my psycho-social-disturbed kind of way. BUT, people, let's keep this in perspective. It is football for the 10-13 year old girls in MN. Let them play and have fun. It does not all have to be about advancing to the next summer tournament to attack the next opponents. How about a nice family camping trip that weekend instead? Not only will the girls learn more than just what's on the pitch, but they also may even gain a better respect for nature and playing ball in the wild (kind of like in the bare streets of 3rd world countries that produce the world's best players).
We seem to all get wrapped up in pushing our kids to that next level. LISTEN! I am one of you!!! I too am like that. ("If you don't train/play more, you will lose your edge...") BUT, are we doing a service to our children? Are they learning to be little machines? (Now, if your girl is a child Marta, then do not hold back. We will likely only see 1-2 "Martas" come out of MN over the next 20-30 year period, so don't be too delusional.) So, if your child does not even play college ball, and we put them through such a regimen of football training, then what have we done to our children?
I'm in this boat too, so I'm not trying to bash MTA-ers. That question is one that, as parents, we need to answer. I certainly did not train year-round to play soccer. Nor was I ever as good a player as my DD is now at age 10. What do we want for them? We want them to have opportunities... especially opportunities that we never had. Yet, are we keeping them focused in one area so much as to suppress their other potential talents...like singing? other arts? philosophy or physics? flying a plane? Becoming an "expert" in anything takes a lot of time and training, just like with soccer. Have we pegged our girls as "jocks" at such an early age? MA should also ask this of his team (girls+parents). A TRUE developmental team to continue training year after year would answer 'YES' (and I don't mean that in a bad way at all...rather it indicates a long standing commitment and should thus be like full-year olympic development, not a 'quasi pay-to-play' program, as it is perceived to be).
BOTTOM LINE: Here's the problem! MA threw the game allowing other U13 girls to get an advantage to proceed. This implies that he KNOWS that the same group of girls, his U12ers, will stay together, move on next year, and will dominate so much that they will FOR SURE make it. In essence, the assumption is that all of his U12ers will get to experience this all next year, so then why not throw their game now and let the others experience it today? Looking at the U12/U13 MYSA teams today, I see where this assumption can be reached. BUT this has some very major flaws, not in logic but rather in ethics/principle.
1) This assumes that the same U12 team will be together next year.
Does this mean that other girls will not be afforded a fair opportunity to try out for this team next year? A hem. If not, then the Club will not grow. If so, then player changes will be made. Some U12 girl/parent from this year's team will not get an opportunity next year that they could have had this year due to MA's throwing of the game. That sucks!
2) This assumes no players changes when we're in a time of socio-economic transfer/turmoil. There will likely be at least 1-2 MTA parents this year that will not be able to pay the dues/transport/travel fees required of MTA due to lost jobs, etc. Now, the response will be that MTA has a scholarship program. BUT, this program does not cover the cost to get your kid to/from training 3-4 days/week in a far off suburb, which matters when you have no parents working. What I'm trying to say is that there will be some player this year that will not get next year's experience due to the massive economic downturn that is hitting us.
So, then what? Given this info, was MA's decision a good one? This is what the outside refers to as the "Club-first mentality". It does look that way, as all player situations were not taken into consideration. It's the "what's best for the club and community outweighs the best interests of any individual" perception that MTA-haters feed on. MA gave this to that community.
MA, I have no reason to bash you. You are a very good trainer and coach. In addition, you are a very well organized soccer event coordinator and an entrepreneur to boot. You inspire many, both youth and parents. You are likely a future MN Soccer Hall of Famer. In this case, you let some people down. The sad part is that those girls/parents will not know it until the selection time for next year's team.
So, can we then assume, to make it up to your U12ers, that you will NOT have fair tryouts next year? That would be fair to the existing team. As an MTA-outsider, and one with a DD with a U12-blue-starter-team-wannabe attitude, I still think it would be fair. BUT, it will fuel other club growth, so MTA will feel it financially.
MTA Executives,
MA's a good asset. You will take a $50,000- $70,000 program hit by keeping him on and keeping the existing team fairness in place assuring all players are the same of the team next year. That does not include the unquantifiable cost to the program's reputation, especiallly in its 1st year since inception. But that is not yet known.
12:28 - Isn't there a road to somewhere that's paved with such intentions?
12:31 -
Ugh? To what are you refrring? Which intentions?
Would that be the road to hell or the road-to-regionals?
Which intentions?
From 12:28 - "This decision, however, was made with many pros/cons and reasons behind it. MA did NOT intend to hurt his girls. He did NOT intend to sacrifice his reputation." Those intentions.
12:41 -
Clever. So you're saying (in 12:31) that MA's intention in his 'Road to Regionals' is based on hurting his girls and sacrificing his reputation???!!!??? Wow! That's a 'Bush-caliber' screwed up thing to write or even imply.
Where did AK's game blog entry go on RTR? It mysteriously disappeared. You know, the one that implicated him in having prior knowledge that this situation was a possibility.....
We all know MA has screwed up and admitted his guilt in this ugly chapter of MN soccer,and probably his book he is going to write (according to him on his blog), but the real question is how AK will respond. I, and I believe many others reading this, believe and or know that AK was "in the know" on this whole senerio well before it played out.
The question is: will AK try to cover a scandal with a lie further extending the scandalous behavior, of will he stand up like a man and accept the fact that we all make mistakes, take his punishment,be humble and repentant, ask his players,friends and coworkers to forgive his actions and move on.
AK, don't play the game some may want you to play, the "Don't worry they will never be able to prove it" game. AK you are a good coach and by all accounts a pretty good guy,this will pass if you take MA's approach of almost"throwing yourself at the mercy" of the court (in this case the court of public opinion). The truth will come out eventually and a short term gain (denying knowledge and people believing you) may if fact cause you much more long term pain once time allows people to speak more freely. People can't keep your secret,any secret long term. If you had involvement please come clean now take your medicine and try to move on. I know, you are worried about the girls not being able to play in the State Cup final this year because of your actions. This is tough but how will they feel 3months,6 months or later when they do find out you had knowledge? Help them respect you first and like you second. Teach them that the truth may hurt but it is always the best policy.
Put this behind you and move on,own your mistakes. It's not if a person makes a mistake that measures them,it's how they respond to that mistake that defines them.
Good luck.
I've watched this stream of posts the past few days and there are many strong opinions on both sides.
The thought that AK knew what would happen before it happened keeps popping up and makes me wonder how many of you are mind readers.
There was no way for the U13 coach to know what would happen until it actually occurred and at that point there was nothing he could do as he had no control over the opposing coach or tplayers.
If any of you are mind readers let me know. I'd like to know which horse will win the Belmont Stakes in a few weeks...thanks!
6:58 You are clearly not one of the "ones who knew" referenced in 6:33.
4:25 here from yesterday....
Prediction #1 - 100% correct
Prediction #2 - 100% correct
To Andy - My dd has never played for you, she is older. Yes she does read this crap too. We both want to thank you for what you give to the club! You have always been helpful and personable, not even sure if you knew we were with the same club. Your girls respect you, hold your head high and keep your nose clean from this. You should go far.
“Sports do not build character. They reveal it.”
“Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
both from
John Wooden
12:30 am - Where do you get your cost impact figures? Please explain.
Reputation taking a hit - doubtful. I would say IMHO that no one on has changed their opinion pro or con because of this screwup.
8:01, I have to disagree with you, my daughter heard about what happened over the weekend. She thinks its terrible what MA did to the team. She said straight out I dont think I would want to be in that club. And she has the talent, maybe not the blue but she would for the white.
1241 - and yet after careful consideration he failed to realize that his actions were corrupt to the game itself. According to his blog, his gut instinct was telling him it was.
PS - any soccer coach should make sure they read everything by John Wooden even though he is from that dreadful sport basketball. His coaching philosophies are excellent.
8:01 a.m. -
This is 12:30. Sorry about the $ figures. I just pulled them out of the air, and included them as example to cover $s related to lost club revenue (e.g., player defections or unwillingness to pay more, lost revenue due to new players not joining the club, potential of lost sponsorship from the MT, Nike, or other outside support like from MYSA - hee hee), and the cost of lost club time to deal with the issue (including the Executive board's time, web master's time, MA's time, AK's time, other MTA director time, etc.), all time spent away from the jobs that they are being paid to do. The $ figure was just an educated guess...I did pull it out of thin air. I don't, however, think it's unreasonable.
In a bit of reverse psychology, this may actually enhance MTA's/Thunder's reputation if they drop the hammer on MA. They'd be showing the soccer community that they have the best interests of the kids as they have always claimed. Being the bearer of everything that's good about soccer is a heavy burden, and now is their chance to prove that they mean it.
I would challenge someone to actually define "the best interests of the kids" as I am quite sure that has a different meaning to everyone. This event obviously wasn't. For some, "best interests" could be 3 parts fun, 1 part teamwork. For others it could be equal parts "striving to be the best" and having fun. For some parents, "striving to be the best" is all parts "child babysitter other than the TV".
you gotta love tomASS.....
"I don't think I have personally attacked Mark or Andy. I have only stated opinions about the situation at least one of them has created".
kind of like saying "I think anyone who robs using a ponzi scheme is bad. Please note I did not say Madoff or Petters".
You can't make this stuff up.
8:18 -
Don't forget that MA is a GREAT asset for MTA and for MN football. Pushing him out of the biz would only disserve all.
I don't think that the 'yet-to-be-quantified' reputation gains that you imply from dropping the hammer on MA would ever outweigh the value of MA's contributions. MA's a target here as he stands out from the rest. And he stood out from the rest well before this incident. He stood out for many different reasons though - mainly because he trained kids well and got them excited about the game and their own capabilties...Everything else I've heard or read negative about MA in the past seemed to be based on envy/jealousy, so cannot really be trusted.
can somebody please explain to me why this tomASS guy keeps typing "tick tock." is there anybody else on here who gets that joke???
what a donkey.
8:13 I don't disagree what it could do for the club, in a positive way if MTA responds aggressively. Here's the reality of how they are handling the situation:
1.They (the board) post a single small notice that they are aware of the situation and are investigating.
2. MA has admitted guilt many times, a clear violation of rules.
3. With their coach ADMITING GUILT the board has self-imposed NO sanctions on the coach, He has coached two league games for his U12 team and has held several practices since the incident (see MA's blog)
It seems to me if a coach admits guilt on an item that has created such a firestorm (Star trib,KFAN,national Blogs,etc.) the board would treat this with more urgency. MTA board must believe these actions are OK if they can get away with it? Why no disciplinary actions,suspentions,statements(other than the initial one?) MA can't help himself, he just keeps blogging on his own site hoping to help his "I'm sorry case" when in fact all he is doing is opening more questions of the Thunders reaction to these events.
How can the Thunder not have self imposed sanctions on this coach? He has admited he cheated breaking State Cup rules. Who's minding the store over there?
I coach a team that plays a year older (among the many). I wouldn't do it if I didn't think they could compete fairly (and safely) with anyone they may encounter. I would never even consider asking the kids to lay down like this in a game. First of all, all of these girls may not be on the team next year so they may not be in the same situation again. Even the same kids can have many things go wrong and next year not be in a similar circumstance. This particular event is all about winning (within the rules). This is not a regular 'league' game or something focused on development. It is a national tournament with the purpose of finding the best team. If you don't have the confidence for your team to handle the circumstances down the road of success don't enter them (regardless of age). Regardless of the conversations before, you still ultimately have the decision at the moment of truth to take either path. If it were me, I would never have contemplated it. To some, that might make me a jerk. There is no club, coach, parent, event, that is bigger than the kids and the integrity of the sport. There is NO CHANCE the kids wanted to let the other team win. They have a great team, work extremely hard and deserved a chance to win. For those kids cut from the team after this season, I would demand a refund.
8:53,
How do you know they have not imposed sanctions?
Has MYSA imposed sanctions?
Give them both a little time.
Did you ever give any thought to the fact that all of the folks at MYSA and MTA involved are volunteers and have full time jobs and can't meet immediately?
Unless you have heard they decided to totally absolve MA of any wrongdoing just give it a rest.
8:53 Its because MTA has always run this rule. If they can get away with it they will. Mark is one of the top people over there hes a director. He knew throwing the game that nothing was going to happen to him. That once this blows over and state cup games are done everyone will forget. I listen to the MTA people on here and they think he and Andy are gods. And will support him until the end. What happens when one of there kids that have learned there play tactics from the coach really do damage. Is MTA going to stand up and say anything nope. Its just the way the organization runs. I know I had a child that played for them its all about the organization and how many titles they can get. So they can pull in more revenue and pull in better players. So don't look for MTA to do a thing. They won't and ive been watching the MYSA web site there overlooking it also.
8:53
There is another possibility. Maybe they are moving forward prudently to make sure of several things; MYSA is on board, the punishment fits the crime, they are carefully considering all the facts and not having a knee-jerk reaction, their actions are legal, what precedence may exist, what to do about AK and the 13s, etc.
You can't just meet once and say "okay, let's do this." I believe this goes beyond the MTA board to MYSA (what do they do about the U13 championship), the professional club, USYS, Nike, ECNL and others. All this has to be coordinated.
So I would say, be patient and I'm sure you'll see something come out soon.
9:06
Not everyone thinks AK is a god. My daughter has played for him and I have no respect for him. My daughter is still with MTA. If they told me AK would be her coach, we'd immediately ask for a release.
The MTA & MA bashers and haters are calling for a lynching before there can even be a trial and deliberation.
Typical of those not capable of understanding the complexity of the situation.
They show their ignorance of due process with each hate filled rant.
Worse, it seems mysa is sitting this out, waiting until the tournament is done, hoping this goes away. One more time seeming to abdicate responsiblity to police the sport because they will be accused of not understanding or supporting "high level soccer".
9:10 is lying. want to prove me otherwise, tell us who you are then.
thought so.
Tick-Tock 834
I have not personally insulted them, I have condemned their actions.
There is a big difference oh narrow minded one
9:03 and 9:07 It is a very common action in amateur sports to self-impose disciplinary action PRIOR to the govening body stepping in to illustrate that the club is serious about abiding by all of the rules set forth by said govening body. He is guilty by his own admission of a serious violation of State Cup rules.
My opinion, The Thunder should suspend him (with pay if they choose) pending the results of the investigation. MA's case, in my opinion, is very clear cut. I would also suspend AK for the same reasons and conditions (pending results of the investigation).
The Thunder is handling this like a pro team would, not an amateur team does. In the pro's you make them prove it (ie, Viking Williams drug charges) because there is no downside to doing so and while on appeal the player gets to play and make lots of money.
Big difference in how the two different types (pro/amateur) of organizations tackle these suspension items.
9:18 -
You're accusing 9:10 of lying when he/she writes that they do not think AK is a god???
Tick Tock 847
Tick-tock is the sound some clocks make.
the time stamp represents the time entered.
it is just another time represented by an anon poster.
I think most anon posters believe people can follow their points and discussion. To me it's just a new person with a new thought.
I don't do it for everyone just the ones I want to irritate.
at least list a sign-off moniker at the bottom of your anon post like lc does and amazingly that person is still an anon to almost everyone else. We can still follow lc's posts.
Oh wait you did do that "what a donkey" my mistake ;-)
anon922
did I miss something? When did the Thunder become a professional team? ;-)
so tomASS, you draw a distinct difference between condemning someone's actions but in no way is that personally insulting them?
two scenarios - love to read your comments.
#1 - an unemployed mom who already has 6 kids, has 8 more via artificial means. If you condemn the actions, do you also feel you are condemning her?
#2 - a local DOC who is also the high school coach for that same community, puts out a notice that any player who leaves the club that he is the DOC for will be jeopardizing their high school playing opportunities. If you condemn the actions, do you also feel that you are condemning the DOC?
I'm sure you'll find a way to split hairs on this, which IMO is the "narrow" minded viewpoint.
How many years are you guys going to trot out that bs man, give it a rest.
I think any of the powers that be should respond in a more timely fashion to this type of issue. This affects all members not just the parties involved.
lc
why is it that so many of you think that MTA should PUBLICLY announce their disciplinary action in this or any other case?
I hope you people are not involved in HR for whatever company is fortunate enough to have you working for them. :rolleyes: :idiots:
9:48 they are publicly announcing it, they are doing nothing, still coaching games and practices is a clear public statement.
I thought MA was god
Tick-tock 940
you really can't see the difference????
condemning someone is like saying he/she is a lying, evil person who does not have have a good bone in their body and I hate what they stand for.
You can like a person and condemn their actions.
For example - I think Obama is a very smart, articulate, hard working, family oriented man, with great character Someone I could have a beer and bowl with, while enjoying his company.
However I disagree on probably 95 % of what political policies he stand for. I condemn many of his policy stances. Am I condemning the man by doing so. I don't think so. How am I wrong in that thought process?
anon 942 - they trot it out because it is all they have to hang on to.
powers that be to include mysa, r2 , ncs ,src,
somebody in charge has do or say something.
lc
ps - in my last post I am referring to, when I say "stand for" their character, ethics, and moral being
not their decision making capabilities
10:11, They don't have to say anything. I checked to see if there was any forfeit or anything of that nature on the state cup and nothing my guess there hoping it all blows over and the games comtinue.
tomASS - yes, I can see the difference, I just completely disagree with your viewpoint. I understand it, I just don't agree with it (just like some with MA's decisions - they understand his viewpoint/intention, just don't agree with it). The Obama example that you cite IMO is apples/oranges to this discussion as those are differences in opinions and policies. No one has claimed or admitted that they are wrong or illegal.
Now if you condemned an ex-President for fooling around in the oval office with an aide in a purple dress, based on what you stated previously, you would only be condemning the actions, but not the man? To really stretch the example, if a german dictator ordered genocide on those of a certain religion, you would condemn his actions, but in no way is that insulting the man? IMO, this is a slippery slope you're starting to go down. BTW, you never supplied your comments to my questions - a common tactic (the best defense is a good offense).
Breaking news! the government did not fund the closing of Guantanamo Prison. There now is a place for detention for this heinous crime!
tick tock tomass, tick tock.
tick tock
tick tock
I thought it was a blue dress- maybe it was purple after the stain?
Glad we are finding clarity.
to your point on Hitler, his character is evil, his morals corrupt, his ethics non-existent and his actions unforgivable - I'm condemning both the man and his actions.
Your questions were answered as one in the statements provided.
Hey, Wayne and I are great friends and there is hardly anyone I respect more in the soccer community. I have no problem disagreeing with him on his actions or decisions. We have great candid discussions and then it's over.
Clarity is always better than agreement.
tomASS - so your comments regarding this instance have not questioned the character, morals, ethics, and actions of the individuals involved? If they have, then I cannot see how you can draw the distinction between the act and the individual. Just my humble opinion. I do agree that clarity is good.
Question...it seems that many of the great youth coaches in the state seem (according to posts) to have some (minor or major) sportsmanship issues/character issues etc. So, who does it right? Who has the great soccer training ability mixed with the great understanding of both the context (it is youth sports after all), the whole athlete, and generally a good person? Any varsity level fall coaches or premier level summer coaches that fit the bill? Looking for positive stuff.
Personally, Both teams should be disqualified, I know of the actions and they do not affect me in anyway but if someone throws a game to give another team from the same club the better chance to go all the way is cheating plain and simple. I think the 13's deep in there heart earned it but did so with the help of the 12's giving it to them. I think the better thing for AK to do is back out and say we did our best but we got here because of no fault but someone in my organization cheated to help us along the way so were backing out and have the next in line play the EP team. I have a child in an older age group and I guess I am a parent that does try to teach my kids right from wrong. Yes do they screw up all the time all kids do but we as parents are the ones that have to guide them to make the right decissions. Sometimes its called tough love
I love my childs coach. He yells at the girls when there screwing up and praises them when they do well. Most of the team loves them. The parents think that hes two tough on them, however ask the girls they like him a lot. When my daughter complains that he was to tough, I tell her we pay him to coach us not to be your best friend. But he has a way of getting through to the kids and has for the most part earned there respect. I think sometimes us parents as a group question, but for the most part we like him. The ones that don't leave and I think thats the way it is from any organization. Your not going to please everyone all the time.
Just and FYI, the PL team that you want to have a replay against played the U13 blue team last night and lost 5-1. There is your semi-final replay, the U13's are going to play in the state cup finals and will beat EP handily to proove a point. It's about the kids and it looks like they are ready to move on.
tough love? I would agree with "tough love" if the U13's made the mistake and needed to be "punished". not sure if that is the situation here.
There's blood in the water and the MA haters want to take down as many MTA teams as possible whether or not they had control over MA's actions or not.
Let's throw our entire army under the bus because a few bad eggs tortured some prisoners. Put the entire army behind bars.
Let's throw everyone under the bus whether they were involved or not.
It's just more of the anger and jealousy we've seen expressed on this blog the past few years.
Take a deep breath folks and think about it before making such inane comments.
tick tock
10:59 were the state cup rules followed if so theres the answer. If not it doesnt count.
I have no problem agreeing to disagree.
Maybe I'm more pragmatic than you are rather than considering you narrow-minded.
As far as I'm concerned one can only be insulted unless they allow themselves to be.
I can be called a donkey or less desirable terms and I don't find it insulting. But if you throw labels out like racist or bigot. I would be offended and we would have issues.
Thanks
11:11 - agreed, but only if it is confirmed that the U13's were complicit in this. That has yet to be determined, although that has not stopped most folks from rushing to judgement or applying the "guilty by association" broad brush.
1049
Jonathan Tudor (not senior JT) is a wonderful DOC in chaska. Develops the love for soccer.
I like David Law in Tonka
The DOC in Coon Rapids seems to have his act together (only heard through the grape vine)
Of course my bias is Wayne Harrison - his training methods are top notch and extremely creative and fun. However many on here will take exception to that recommendation, and that's their option.
I personally think WB of PSA is overrated, and his resume overinflated - just my opinion.
Its funny you call it MA haters or MTA haters. We played for them it wasnt what we were looking for and until recently I didnt have a dislike or like for the organization or MA personally. I actually like the guy but I dont like the fact that he will do what ever it takes to get the better team into the playoffs. That just isn't right. Maybe the 12 parents are ok with it. But every other team non MTA related that the 12's knocked out of the playoffs should be spitting tacks right now. I know my child just said its not right when she heard about it. Shes been in competitive soccer since 5th grade both CC, Bangu and now MTA at an older level. Its cheating and its not right. If MA had no intention of letting his players go all the way then he should not have been in the tournament. The do what it takes doesnt work. Now if its do what it takes within the rules then I understand but you have to stay within the rules. Believe me people when I say the kids are reading these blogs and the ones that have formed there morals that are older are agreeing with the adults that say this isn't right. I asked my daughter what she thought she said its just not fair to the other teams in the competition that the U12 played against and knocked out of the tournament. Its not fair to the U13 that are moving on because they didnt do it fair. Either I have raised an idiot or a very intelligent young lady. But know parents what you right on here is read by the kids. They all have computers and know the sites. Shes the one that told me what happened I had no clues until it came up in conversation.
I would monitor her computer usage closer.
Great...
Like soccer doesn't have enough strikes against it in this country.
Talk with any group of (male) athletes, most think soccer is a joke.
Now this...
One of the "best" MN soccer coaches instructing his players to lay down a game.
Why?
Because if they go all the way in State Cup they might lose at Regions?
(I.E. he and his club might be embarrassed)
This was "cheating" okay.
12 year old girls were deprived the lesson of running through the finish line as strong as possible.
Soccer in this state won’t come to an end if MA steps down.
Other MYSA coaches have been forced to do so over a “mistake”.
This kind of story just makes our sport look silly.
Socmom is right on. IMO it is Very sad that MTA has not self imposed suspensions on the two coaches involved (both are still coaching as of last night). The MTA board is only asking for even tougher sanctions by not immediately suspending all duties of the two involved. These two gave MN a black eye and now the MTA board won't even supply an ice bag for the swelling.
As you can tell I believe there is No way AK was not aware this was the plan. Too many coincidences and too close a relationship with MA for me to believe he was unaware.
I think something is left out of this discussion. MA did not have the kids throw the game, he had them play as well as they could throughout regulation and OT. Neither he nor AK thought this would be that close, and he made one bad decision at PK time. If his team had closed the deal in regulation, they'd be going.
Years ago, my kid's U13 team went to regionals and had the snot beaten out of them. It was an expensive trip, financially, emotionally, and physically --- I believed we sent three kids to the ER. People in other midwestern states take their soccer very seriously, and their elite teams are physical. A one year age differential IS a huge deal. I don't think what Mark did was totally right, but in the balance, his contributions to MN soccer over the last 15 or more years should buy him some good will, and his contrition should be valued.
How about keeping the BLOG focused on improving youth soccer, and taking the personal confrontations elsewhere? Please???
Setting aside all the emotion, politics, and old-hater baggage...A coach chose to manipulate the outcome of a tournament. That is just plain wrong, and there need to be individual consequences for the U12 coach. The “club over kids” arrogance needs to be nipped in the bud. All coaches should be expected to act within the rules and spirit of the game, especially the ones kids look up to most. No excuses.
The opposing coach and players did nothing wrong, and should not be sanctioned for playing their best and winning. MYSA could require another qualifying game against the next highest ranking team, if there is any question about sending Minnesota’s best players to Regionals.
My turn to chime in. I will preface the following by saying I don't condone MA's decision in the least bit.
socmon, where have you heard or read a statement from MA that he supports his decision? People like you think that he has taught his girls that cheating, taking a dive in a competition, or dishonoring the game is OK. Everything the man has done since his decision has spoken out AGAINST this. Do you for one minute think his girls, the parents on his team, or his club somehow leave this situation thinking differently than he does? I don't get it. It was obviously a mistake. The guy has admitted it clearly. The lessons from this incident are many, by his example, but to say that one of the lessons is that it's OK to cheat is ridiculous.
It was a mistake and his club and MYSA should punish HIM for it. If MYSA takes any action against a team in his club, a group of players, it will be the wrong punishment. I fully expect MYSA to ignore this though as they have an opportunity now to appease all the anti-MA/MTAers out there who I'm sure are very vocal over this particular incident.
I still hold the utmost respect for the man. Not because of his decision but rather because of his actions following that decision. If more coaches followed his lead and accepted responsibility for misdeeds, our kids would learn real lessons through this sport.
I'm not here to change anyone's mind at this point. Just stating that there are many, many people who I've spoken with this week who agree with me, and I'm trying to keep some bigger picture perspective in a thread full of the sudden myopic righteous.
This blog has been the single largest contributing factor to the toxic youth climate in this state. Maybe mnfutbol doesn't realize that, maybe he/she doesn't care. There is no monitoring and no accountability and it brings to the forefront the very worst in people and in youth sports.
Consequences need to balance a single unethical decision weighed against many years of positive contribution to player development. That would keep the kids' best interests in the forefront, right?
look! I got a moniker!!!
So tomASS is biased (by his own admission) towards the guy who abused his position as a high school coach to keep kids in the club he directs (conflict of interest anyone), was fined by the state high school league for committing rules violations?
yes, he is definitely qualified to speak on ethics here.
How about keeping the BLOG focused on improving youth soccer, and taking the personal confrontations elsewhere? Please???
12:46 Big Picture: Agreed. How many coaches would have the integrity and maturity to so plainly admit the mistake? Gotta give credit for that, but of course acknowledging the mistake does NOT make it all better.
Let the kids play, the coaches coach (with integrity), and the best players advance to Regionals. MYSA/MTA, are you listening to the part about the PLAYERS???
In my opinion the threat WH made to his high school's players if they didn't play for the club team in the high school's community was at least if not more grevious than what happened at State Cup.
He directly threatened dozens of teenage girls.
Did the high school or the club involved sanction WH?
Big Pic: Good point about a few bloggers contributing to a toxic atmosphere. When “bravely” anonymous hater comments spew forth, all I hear is BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
Imagine the constructive discussions that could be occurring on this BLOG to move improve the situation better for players. (Notice I didn’t say CLUBS or even parents)
Regardless of what is happening in MSHSL, mainipulating tournament results is unacceptable. The U12 coach must be reprimanded in a resonable level-headed manner. (Not with emotional response or years of accumulated baggage)
Predictions-
MYSA will do nothing. They lack leadership and refuse to take a stand without a vote of their constituents to stand behind. They will probably make a new rule next winter to prevent this in the future, but do nothing here.
MTA will do nothing. They really don't need to. They are who they are. After all, this was really just a crime of arrogance. One man thought he knew better than the laws of the game on how to pick the best team. That could be the very definition of arrogance, but I wouldn't expect MTA to go around and start punishing people for being arrogant.
The Thunder ownership will sell the club within a year. This could not come at a worse time for the Thunder. They are already trying to deal with a poor product and a poor economy that have led to dwindling interest in the team, and now the most polarizing figure in MN soccer further alientates a large portion of their potential fan base. I have heard they are good businessmen. If so, they will bail. They don't need this.
Nike and USYS will laugh at the hicks in MN getting their panties in a bunch over this.
US Club will offer discounted membership to any club that pulls a similar stunt in the future.
Unfortunate indeed. The academy concept has great potential to nurture teams that get Minnesota noticed at a regional and national level. A few MN teams from various clubs are making serious inroads, but now all the attention goes into another club-over-kids scandal. So sad how MTA arrogance paves a winding road right back to Hicksville. If only they could remember the KIDS make the club.
Read IMS (a real soccer blog) - they're doing "something," as it appears both MYSA and MTA have told IMS they can't comment on their actions until they are reviewed and approved by a "legal team."
ouch. here comes the hurt. the community clubs must be planing a fiesta.
The rules are on the side of both teams being disqualified because both coaches knew of the plan (I understand some of you want to try to dispute this but the evidence is overwhelming see many above posts). The coaches are also directors of the same club. The whole intent was to advance the CLUB with no regard for the players. Actually neither team (players) did anything wrong. The game was tainted and cannot stand. I agree if AK was not involved the next best team could step in for a redo game. Does anyone really believe AK didn't know? Come on people. He and MA are best friends, they attend each others games (see both blogs) they stratagize endlessly about all parts of the game, they are both directors of the same club with a clear vested interest in putting the "best" team to the championship game (helps the club resume)and finally the fact that the reason MA gives for making the decision to throw the game was because he remembers what happenned a year ago when ak's then u-12 team beat the (then bangu) U-13 team and struggled at the regional level. Does anyone think for even one minute that MA had drawn these conclusions without discussing it with the coach of the team (who is also his very good friend) who struggled at regionals?
I have seen several very stupid posts on here but I have also seen some very well thought out posts bringing up good to great points on a variety of interests. Unless you are a parent of one of the 13's just trying to cling to your girls spot in the final, how can anyone believe AK was oblivious to the plan?
Tick-Tock 1232 in my opinion probably a non-gay, PC liberal loon would consider that offensive. I'll let you debate my bigotry towards gays with my gay friends and gay business associates. Good luck with that debate.
I suppose my sentiment that the definition of marriage should be held to a union exclusively between a man and a women; however, I believe in civil unions that afford equal financial/health/civil rights to homosexuals if approved by the majority within a state-wide election; also makes me a bigot in your eyes too?
Not voting for Obama makes me a racist?
Mark & Andy you can thank me later for refocusing some of the rhetoric on here away from you guys
This blog has been the single largest contributing factor to the toxic youth climate in this state. Maybe mnfutbol doesn't realize that, maybe he/she doesn't care. There is no monitoring and no accountability and it brings to the forefront the very worst in people and in youth sports.
22/5/09 12:46 PM
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS POST!! PEOPLE BEING ALLOWED TO HURT OTHERS AND SPEW HATE. BIGSOCCER DOESNT ALLOW THIS. MNFUTBOL, YOU NEED TO START ISSUING YELLOW AND RED CARDS ON THIS BLOG, AND HAVE EVERYONE TAKE A POST NAME.
tomASS WHole - I like the creativity! well done
Dude read and comprehend - I never said I approved of his actions. Show me where? He didn't commit a crime. He broke a rule, he consented to his wrong-doing, he paid the fine and has a permanent reprimand on his MSHSL files (I have two - I have him beat) I don't know of him doing it since.
Wow this was like 5 years ago - someone has pent-up anger to go with that creativity.
Hopefully people will forgive Mark a lot sooner.
Admission- penalty- punishment served- move on.
BLOG posts don't contain any "evidence"; they contain personal opinions. It should be all about the KIDS here, not about old club feuds or baggage about coaches. What so you think is best for the PLAYERS?
140 - I agree with everyone having a post name, but your post must be a single shot since you didn't take one??
I love it ANON 1:40 IN CAPS says everyone must take a name. Beautiful Anon critical of Anon and now me another anon being critical of both. Crazy
Oh yea, I am guessing the 30 people who post here are not tearing down the 88,000 players involved in MN youth soccer.
135 - and that is the sad state of affairs when legal teams have to be consulted before you take any action in youth sports.
That make me very sad
tomASS - with all due respect, what official rule did MA/MTA break? We can all agree that there are many unwritten and long-standing truths around fair competition, etc... No one has stated that rule 1.4.2.1 has been broken. Once again, this may be a naive question.
Hey I am all for giving the EP players a shot if there is any uncertainty about the MTA U13's players having earned a berth. However MYSA should let the kids play for the spot, and send the best players to Regionals. No hand-outs based on technicalities.
you all realize that MYSA will do whatever they can to smack MTA hard, right? some will be deserved, but i would wager quite a chunk of dough that they will go after both teams and maybe even more than that... and potentially end up in court again.
not likely MYSA will be happy with simply punishing the decision, they see an opportunity to inflict pain, and will do so (my best guess)
Don't cheat and you won't have to subject yourself to the penalties for cheating.
anon 150 - not a naive question
someone posted some state cup rules/regulations earlier. Sorry I can't cite them nor did I backtrack to find them.
I do side and cite more with the unwritten truths.
The Spirit of the Game, the Golden Thread; those things that are more the foundation of the sport.
That is why I am inclined to believe that the U13 team should not bear responsibility for the coach's action.
Bottom line, he influenced the end result to dictate which team moved forward and which team did not. All the other factors can be used in determining his penalty or punishment.
Big pic, that was one of my favorite posts on this site. Ever.
Remove AK as coach, sent the 13s into the final with their asst coach, prohibit AK from going to regionals if the 13s get past EP. Don't punish the innocent (players).
155- Is the MYSA hard-up for money again? thus the extensive fine you predict? I don't even think money should be involved personally, but maybe the MYSA has some budget short falls or junkets they are planning (not to speak with the clubs on an on-going basis I assure you)
My opinion, and what I would impose. If MTA can be shown to have known about the situation, I would not fine them. It was during state cup this occurred. I would not allow a team from MTA at the girls U13 level to participate next year. Nor a U12 team.
1:50 Here is the rule broken (as if it really needed to be written down to know it's dead wrong)
Page 28 of Championship Rules, #9 Sportsmanship
http://www.mnyouthsoccer.org/events/09statecup/rules.pdf
"...If the Minnesota State Cup Director and Administrative Committee determines that a particular action by a team or any of its players, coaches, team officials or spectators is deemed unacceptable for any reason, the team may be disqualified, sanctioned, requested to play another qualifying game against the next highest ranking team that would otherwise be eligible to advance, and/or face forfeiture of one or more games. Examples of such action include, but are not limited to:
==> suspected forfeiture or otherwise determining the outcome of a game with the design or purpose of controlling the advancement of any team from its own group or any other group, intentionally losing a game, <== or unnecessarily running a score up for no purpose other than to humiliate opponents...."
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