The Sunday 5/17 MN State Cup U13 Girls semi final game between MTE13GC101 (U12s playing up) and MTA13GC101 ended with a bit of controversy. According to the MTE13GC101 coach's statements in his own blog:
"I told them I was so proud of their efforts, but I wanted them to step up and pass the ball to the U13 GK when it was their turn to shoot. "
This has stirred up many questions about ethical behaviour. Some are speculating that the MTA13GC101, Coach AK, may have known what was going to happen as well. There seems to be more bloggers chiming in with strong concerns about Coach MA's decision. Still a few are defending his actions.
The MTA "club" has tried to distance themselves from the controversy by stating on their web site:
"The MTA Executive Board is aware of an incident at State Cup this past weekend. It was a coach's decision that came into question; an individual decision, and it was not supported by the club. We are looking into it further to deem whether any disciplinary action is needed."
What could be even more disturbing is that Coach MA may have informed the team parents of his plans, during the previous winter. If true, why wasn't anything done?
What's next? What will MYSA do? What will USYSA do? What will MTA do?
1,023 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 1023 Newer› Newest»It might be fair to ask the MTA U13 team to play another qualifying match (vs. EP?) to ensure they "earn" a spot at Regionals by playing against a team that will fight to the finish.
It appears the U12 coach admitted to violating the Sportsmanship rules, and expects to face the consequences.
Innocent players and opponents should NOT be punished for player their best and winning. It's not their mistake.
tomASS - found it in the 2009 State Cup Rules on page 28:
"Examples of such action include, but are not limited to: suspected
forfeiture or otherwise determining the outcome of a game with the design or purpose of controlling the advancement of any team from its own group or any other group, intentionally losing a game, or unnecessarily running a score up for no purpose other than to humiliate opponents."
2:06 If you were coaching and the opposing coach decided to intentionally lose, what could you possibly to about it? It is beyond your control, right? Why would you waiver from coaching your team to play their best, cleanest soccer, ...and win?
Everyone have a great Memorial day weekend!
Please remember what its true purpose is.
Fly the American flag high and proud.
Give thanks to every living, current and retired soldier for the freedoms and liberties they have enabled us to have by the sacrifices they have made.
Say a prayer or provide a memorial to all those that have fallen or given their lives protecting us.
I'll be at Ft. Snelling tomorrow. Do not forget any loved ones you may have that are buried buried there.
sorry I stutter when i get emotional
oh wait I don't want to be considered a bigot to stutterereerererererrers ;-)
Oh PS - I had listed my favorite DOCs for someone. I also like the girls director at Edina
Colette! She does a great job of teaching soccer and keep the big picture perspective in place
I would bet any legal concerns have nothing to do with the teams, players etc but with adults' contracts.
Think about it...
I checked the MTA website to find out who the directors are. Penalties?? Don't hold your breath.The "Father OF Club First" is a director. The directors created the enviornment that allowed MA to think it would be ok to fix the game for club gain. MA was expecting a pat on the back. You think the directors are going to toss him under the bus.
MTA directors recieve no compensation. Strictly volunteer.
OK...now get off the bong.
YAWN...ok 211 post later, give it a rest.
The great John Wooden...
While John was doin the coachin and winnin national championships the boosters were busy little bees payin recruits and providin girlies for the recruits. The good ol boys even paid for an abortion.
UCLAN
Let's not assume lawyers are involved. If so, why would MA still be allowed to blog about his "errors in judgment?" I don't think he is aware of his option to "plead the fifth" to avoid self-incrimination. Either that, or his ego will not allow common sense to prevail.
Regardless, why would any club/academy allow a coach to blog about minor players, teams, coaches, administration, the club, etc? Seems to open too many cans of worms.
After reading the drivel posted on MA's blog, one has to wonder if this incident is the only thing people should be concerned about.
MA has already taken the blame for it and accepted responsibility.
He will accept the sanctions that come from MYSA the club.
Where have you been?
5:16, MA will come away from this with his head high and a better person. You, on the other hand, will always be a cowardly hater. I feel sorry for you and hope your life gets better.
i always love it when people complain about TV shows they don't have to watch, newspaper/magazine articles they don't have to read, and the best is a blog that they have to make an effort to even find - and then complain about it......
one of the sadder things about this whole ordeal is that having seen both teams play, the U12's most likely would have dusted EP.
As others have pointed out, MA is one of the best female soccer coaches in the state. I believe that to be a fact. He has made a tremendous contribution to the development of players and teams and clubs he has been assoiciated with. So with just one mistake, many are ready to get out the rope. I hope those willing to see him swing find more mercy when they make a mistake in their lives or jobs.
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." Yes, it even applies to the small things like soccer.
I don't think MA or anyone who knows him well would be so arrogant as to say that this is the only mistake he's made in his career as a coach or administrator. This just happens to be the most egregious, and one that isn't just a disagreement between ideologies. It's against the rules in clear black-n-white English. To suggest that his other contributions should get him out of hot water is an insult to the game, the rules governing it, and every coach who chooses to NOT break rules whatever the temptation or intentions.
Here is what I don't understand-
IF the U12s could beat the MTA U13s, why would there be any question as to whether or not they would be the best representative at Regionals? Would they magically lose skill or organization once they leave the State?
To clarify my question- IF the U12s can win State Cup at U13, would they then not logically be the best MN has to offer? Why then "fix" the game so that the better team doesn't win?
I don't get it........
I don't get it either, even if Regional tourney play seems to favor bigger more physical teams.
I have to admit MA has done a boatload of positive things for girls soccer development, both at individual and team levels. That shouldn't give anyone a free pass to ignore sportsmanship rules or disregard the spirit of competition. There should be consequences, I just hope they are even handed and fair in the bigger picture. ... and focused on the offending adult, rather than the kids.
The 13 championship is scheduled for 9:30 next Saturday. One would think an announcement is going to come soon.
It appears (to me) there will not be a disqualification of the 13s because there is a lot that would need to be done with another semi final game taking place (perhaps).
I think it would be only fair to EP and the 13s to announce the game will take place as scheduled so both teams have time to prepare without this distraction.
I third option I guess, would be that EP would be declared the champion, but even that announcement should come soon. It could have an impact on the training schedule of both EP and the 13s.
"You don't hear much from SSM and crew anymore. Seems they have their own blockbuster scandal to deal with."
21/5/09 9:11 PM
Did we all miss something down in Faribault?
I think the "SSM scandal" referred to here was actually a Park HS scandal that happened two years ago with the hockey team. Didn't effect SSM or soccer at all, so no, you didn't miss something down in Faribault.
Whoa horsey...
Me thinks the coach in question works for SSM. Now that was a great hire.
me thinks some MTA fan boys are trying to deflect attention away from a certain soccer coach
or coachES
methinks 1:41 & 1:46 are the same person and methinks also that they need to find a better outlet for their personal angers and frustrations.....however, best to let it out here on the blog than at home or at work.
me thinks 2:15 should look in the mirror.
ouch - i bet that one hurt, LOL. what's next.. "i'm rubber you're glue....".
Yes, what is next? Any word from MYSA, MTA, or anyone what is next? Does anyone have the cajones to make a call here?
It's all over. You missed it. Everything is back to normal.
Not sure what the remedy should be. The rule often quoted regarding rigging results was designed for a scenario where a team throws a game in group play to give their opponent the right to advance out of group with the victory. This impacts the third team that would have advanced had the result been different. For example, MTA loses to MTW in group so that MTW advances instead of Sibley. When the team that is negatively impacted by not advancing is your own the rule is not applicable. The only team injured is your own so how can you punish another team? This action was wrong but is not the crime of the century some would like it to be. MA should be suspended until Aug 1, 2010 without pay effective immediately, and RTR should be shut down. This will sting the pocketbook. The notion that somehow the U13 team should be punished is ludicrous whether AK knew this was going to happen or not.
10:26 Shutting down RTR could not be anyones choice but MA. MYSA cannot shut it down and MN Thunder would be ask it IMHO.
WITCH! WITCH!! BURN HIM! BURN HIM!! (he turned my U12 into a newt.....she got better..).
When in doubt, you can always fall back on Monty Python to put things in perspective.
Do you mean the questions around bringing in players to SSM that may have already attended and played college soccer?
9:37 - please make sure you have all your facts and details straight before you start lobbing bombs out there.
Anyone know the outcome of state cup games? Is there a news blackout?
there is no state cup this weekend.
Just out of curiosity, how many of you know AK or MA personally?
Having played with Bangu/MTA for years on end, I have gotten to know nearly all of their coaches very well. Let me make this very clear: there is not a single coach who does not act on what is in the kids' best interest. They DO NOT care only about money.
True, MA's decision was wrong, but he did it with only the best intentions. After the incident last year with the 12's going on to regionals only to have their confidence smashed, Mark was trying to protect his kids from that experience. He meant no harm.
Think about what you have been saying. Do you really know the whole story? No, you don't. So stop making false assumptions for the whole world to see just because you have some inexplainable hate of MTA. The club exists solely for kids who live and breathe soccer. All kids who play for MTA, including myself, respect these coaches willingness to push us and desire to win. We chose this. You have no right to criticize.
137, My daughter was on the team that went to regions with AK and not one of those kids got their confidence crushed. Actually it was a huge boost of confidence for those players. So please don't pretend like you know what you are talking about. You are being naive if you think he did it for the 12's that was the last thing on his mind. It was putting the Club first over the kids.
1:37 wrote "We chose this. You have no right to criticize."
Absolutely. Of course, that also should apply to MTA posters regarding CCs and SSM. I see plenty of evidence of MTA people criticizing the choices of others.
9:54 Perhaps you are not aware of the facts that were presented at 9:37. 2 years ago, an older brother, of an existing player, attended Shattuck. Before enrolling at Shattuck, he attended a university. Fact.
Give us Barabas
8:24 -asking for Barabas without a lisp just doesn't have the same impact (no offense to all my speech impediment friends...).
If MA had any class he would resign and save the club and MYSA the trouble. What he is doing now is call rationalization. He thinks everyone will grow from his mistake...he is wrong. 10x more bad, than good, will come from his mistake. Have some class.
M A
M Thunder A
M Youth Soccer A
to be replacing Thor as our
God of Soccer Mascot
At the games
lc
MYSA should disqualify both MTA teams involved in this mess. Sanction the club and bar them from next years state cup and fill the finals with the next team in line.
2:25
Based on what? Your dislike of MTA. If you have a valid reason lets hear it. I agree let the punishment fit the crime but your solution goes well beyond.
2:25 Would you really want to win that way?
Bottom line is the coach was correct in that the U12 team could not compete at regionals. They were thoroughly outplayed by the MTA 13's and had other close games in group. Today they were beaten 3-0 by the Rev 13's. The end does not justify the means here but the end was the correct one. Henceforth U12 teams should not be allowed to play state cup.
We want to win MTA style! By having the opposition role the ball to our GK during PKs!!!
Makes no sense, as that would also be considered losing MTA style.
5:o2 Maybe you want to check the facts- the score of today's game was 3-1. Were you at the game to comment with such authority?
This whole thing is really stupid. If MA is the great coach everybody thinks he is, why couldn't he win the game with the 12s, COACH them to improve by the time regionals come around, and do their best. And what makes the 13s that much better of a team to go to Regionals when they couldn't beat the 12s straight up? Dont tell me size or whatever, because between 12 and 13 it isn't a decider. Maybe the fact tat the 12s don't have te experience of a year at 11v 11? But, they proved that they could play with the 13s. The logic of the whole thing is off. It is game fixing pure and simple. If it was a pro team (not the Thunder, I said pro) both teams and coaches would be suspended at least for a year at the highest level(example Juventus).
is this the same DREV vs. MTA game this afternoon that was 1-1 into the second half? I do agree that DREV was the better team, but the talent gap wasn't that huge.
5:02 - if the U12's aren't good enough to enter State Cup, do you think we should also ban all the "weaker" U13 teams (being that the U12's went 4-0 in their pool against them)? If the U12's don't stand a chance at regionals, what chance would all the teams have that they beat?
I want to know who missed the pens,did squeaky take one?or bunny?or speedy?
This whole thing is crazy, The coachES cheated. They had this thing layed out a year ago. None of the MTA parents protested enough to change the "plan". Both MTA teams need to be suspended for the balance of the State Cup because of their COACHES bad decisions. You just can't fix games period!!! The girls suffer because of the coaches decisions, they did nothing wrong but the rule is clear. Sorry girls/parents AK and MA are who you should be angry at, not the messengers on this blog.
8:22, you've been blah-blah-blah that both coachES (and you always like to capitalize the last two letters) knew. That is your assumption, belief, wish, analysis, etc.... Personally, I have yet to see anything anywhere that confirms that AK was in on this. Did MA mention it to him - yes as per MA's blog, but no where have I read anything from either MA or AK that they conspired. I think you are connecting dots by assumption and not by fact.
Sorry 8:22, it is "the messengers on this blog" like yourself that tend to muddy everything up.
8:38 If it makes you feel better to deny the obvious, who am I to stop you. If you know the two in question, and I am guessing you do, then you know as well as I do that it is overwhelmingly obvious that the two knew exactly what would happen IF the game went to PK's. Go on playing the "prove it if you can" game all day long but really, honestly can you look anyone you know straight in the eye and honestly say you don't believe the two had planned this IF the game went to PK's? Really?
yes I do and yes I can. i know - you just wish and hope.
I walked by a beautiful suburban park today with 5 soccer fields and a playground. Three white kids were on the playground. Four non-white kids were on a soccer field practicing bicycle kicks. Pointless but priceless.
I think MA should donate the remainder of his 2009 U12 MTA salary as his punishment, but he should remain coaching this year and beyond. He admits to making this terrible mistake, but he's too good of a U12 coach to step away.
i agree w/2:25pm's post. Disqualify both MTA teams. Rules are set in place. The Coach(es) agreed to this set and went with it. If the u12's happened to win the PK then the team that plays the winner of that MTA u12/13 has the biggest gripe. PK's take alot of teams win or lose. Hence both teams (coaches, players, all involved)cheated. Disqualify both teams, give them a 1 year ban from state cup. That is what MYSA should do. Imagine SSM doing something like this.....just because it's MTA and the Coach is SO SORRY, doesn't not the justify anything.
NOT A MTA/SSM parent.
8:51
"Yes I do": Feel better to deny the obvious.
"Yes I can": believe it is overwhelmingly obvious that the two knew exactly what would happen IF the game went to PK's.
Thanks for your agreement.
8:58 - gggrrrrriiiinnnnndddd...that's the sound of your axe.
Ok Mama Mia, then what happens when MTA or another club does this again !!!!!!!!!! The club coach gets a 1 game suspension so his overall club can work the system.
As you said "Donate the rest of his $ this year" then get $ under the table so it all looks good.
wake up mama
Not a MTA/SSM parent
I agree cheating is cheating, do the crime do the time. Disqualification and 1 year ban is fair.
I spent a good deal of the weekend up in Blaine last year and spoke to many MTA parents and several parents from a variety of other clubs. Overwhelmingly people felt for the u-12 girls. They got a bad deal from their coach. Most felt MA and Ak should be suspended or sanctioned or fired or banned or something severe. It was good to see that the masses DO NOT believe this should be swept under the rug and that serious disciplines should be handed out to both coaches.
I think MTA is going to take a big hit from this ordeal, just a feeling based on the comments I heard but MTA people are really angry about this one. Time heals so I could be wrong, we will see.
Disband the club.
Not a MTA/SSM parent
Don't disband MTA - DQ'd and 1 year ban. That is what is fair.
Not a SSM/MTA Parent
9:06 - so you mean to tell us all that most of the MTA parents felt MA and AK should be suspended or sanctioned or fired or banned or something severe?
Disband all youth soccer.
Not a MYSA Parent
I watched the MTA 12's play 2x and they looked pretty good. I cansee why MTA wanted the 13's though I cannot condone their actions.
I still can't believe they threw the game and people are defending the two coaches
Does anyone else agree w/both teams being DQ'd and a 1 year ban. I know I do.
9:12 being that I doubt you are a MTA parent, and being that most folks on this blog are not MTA parents, I am quite sure you will have plenty of company.
13's did not have anything to do with it, yes MA made a mistake but the players want him to come back and coach
9:10 I spoke to several and YES they had no time for the actions of the two and said to me that they would support sanctions. More than one thought it was time for the two to move on and "quit ruining the reputation of the club". MTA has many rational parents just like other clubs. My hats off to them for their objective perspective.
9:15 12's did nothing wrong either, THEIR COACHES DID!!!
9:15 "but the players want him to come back and coach" These are 11 and 12 year old girls. They want what they know, not what is necessarily best for them.
9:20pm. You have to look at the bigger pic, not just at the u12 girls. MYSA needs to speak loud, quick and harsh. Both teams DQ'd and 1 year state cup ban.
If MTA wants the coaches back that is a team issue only.
isn't MYSA kind of running out of time since the finals is less than 5 days away.
9:29pm. You are absolutely correct. that is why other teams will be allowed to get away w/stuff like this.
Too bad. DQ'ing both teams and 1 year ban from state cup like the other post said would be justice.
Knowing MYSA, they will probably ban MTA from all events at NSC - that way they can kill two birds with one stone.....
They might also require the MTA blue teams to play MN premier.
9:23 I agree with you I was just saying that the team suffers for the actions of their leader. The kids didn't do anything wrong but rules were broken and penalties must be paid. Sad for the kids, and surely not the learning lesson the parents signed up for but a clear violation just the same. Both teams DQ'd both coaches suspended.
I still do not believe EP would want to win by DQ.
I still think they would like to beat the best in order to go to regions. Anything else is a hollow victory and takes away from what they could accomplish and earn on their own.
If MTA had any class at all they would forfeit ~ pure and simple. just forfeit. but, do they have any class ? time will tell.
That is a brilliant idea. MTA should forfeit.
MTA parent
Most of the comments and reactions on this thread are comprised of one part self-righteousness, one part MTA dislike/jeolousy, and one part village mob with pitchforks. Add it all up and you have the ingredients for an mindless cocktail.
If we're wanting to compare this to pro sports, when Glen Taylor & Co were caught cheating, the Wolves were fined, McHale was suspended a year, and the kicker, they lost significant draft picks.
In comparison, MA should donate his salary, MA should be suspended for a season, and here's the kicker, no players from outside MTA should be able to join U12 MTA for 2010.
TomASS just follow the rules: the next highest finisher replaces the rule breaker (disqualified) . No DQ. I think that gives it to Prior Lake.
If MTA has any class they should forfeit, keep their dignity and provide a formal apology + a fine.
9:47 - that has to be one of the worst comparisons I could possibly think of. What's next?? Should we compare him to the NFL's drug policy where the first violation there is no punishment and it is kept confidential?
Even though they can be quite litigious, I doubt MYSA is going to make any kind of ruling that does not have any hard evidence to support its decisions. It would just open them up to a counter-action.
Right now MTA is laughing because they will get away with this .
MYSA will not do anything. If they were, they would have done so.
Do you really think the Thunder would sue and keep this story alive. I doubt their PR dept is happy about this and can't wait for it to go away.
Take your punishment get it over with and move on as soon as possible. MA or AK sue, doubt they want to front the legal bills and further destroy their name.
anon 949 - not to offend Prior Lake fans and parents, but is that what EP really wants? playing the 3rd or 4th best team available?
I believe all the rules use the word "may" leaving the tribunal leeway in making judgment.
What if Prior Lake Won? We might as well send no one.
I think 9:55 is somewhat correct in that they can't impose any penalties based off of assumptions or what the blood that this "unbiased" blog is calling for.
if nothing happened then why are the MTA coaches apologizing ???
They should forfeit, cheating is cheating.
10:12 - one coach has apologized for his actions. If there are others please inform us.
ok 10:12 1 coach apologized ..... symantics. MTA cheated. did they not ? why apologize then. a 4 year old can understand this.
ok 10:18 - the one coach who has apologized, his team has already lost. What you you want him to do forfeit now. What more do you want him to do?
ok we have come completely 1800 degrees ( that's 5 laps of the 360 for you liberal art majors)
Let's get on with the action - someone please make a decision and then we can argue the pros and cons of the penalty or lack thereof.
Have Las Vegas odd-makers come up betting lines?
We might as well bet on youth sports if we are going to cheat at youth sports ; -)
tomASS - you've been a round for a while and seen the inner actions (not sure that is the best description) of MYSA. Any predictions?
the penalty kickers should get the rest of the year off, they knew it was wrong.
lc
lc - are you suggesting that 12 year olds be suspended for doing what their coach asked them to do?
Anonymous said...
ok 10:18 - the one coach who has apologized, his team has already lost. What you you want him to do forfeit now. What more do you want him to do?
25/5/09 10:23 PM
MTA CHEATED SO ANOTHER MTA TEAM COULD BENEFIT. GET IT ? SO THE OTHER MTA SHOULD FORFEIT !
yes , the little girls cheated and they knew it.
they're closer to drivin' than diapers and they're treated like pros
lc
anon 1027 - MYSA, if they like you they go easy on you. If they dislike you, they do what they can to make sure you pay the price.
If I would have done this, and I can't even imagine of dreaming up such a scheme, though I have done stupid things in my past and probably future; the MYSA would exile me from soccer as you know it in the US.
lc - only remember that pros don't wear those stupid Full90 headgear ( that one is for you Mrs. Robinson) they have been trained, as their parents have too, to do what is asked of them in order for them to find the holy grail of soccer.
it isn't any different than taking out the other teams star because the coach said to.
lc
and for clarification purposes for those of you with daughters at the u12 or u13 level that do not understand cheating.
By taking out, lc means like in Tonya Harding style fashion "taking out" not as being removed from the game in a substitution like method.
lc you have to know your audience
the holy grail isn't in san diego, sioux falls or blaine
it's in the park 7 minutes from your house where your kid passes the ball to someone she knew since 1st grade who misses it & they both hustle back on defense.
lc
lc - agreed
thanks tomass for your insights. MYSA can only do so much. Do you think MYSA should legislate morality and ethics. it is up to each one of us coaches to do what is right and sometimes, ev-ill gets involved. MA did this for...what he believes was for the interest of the team and club, and of course his competitiveness. He has apologized but still he needs to decide if his apology serves the true needs of U12 / U13 girls soccer. fast forward - 2022 - one of these young girls is coaching for MTA and MA son or daugther is on the team and MA (dad) is on sidelines. Future coach tells her team to throw in the game? What does MA tell young coach and his son or daugther?
only time will tell - my friend...remember the great players from Moorhead - cheating the game - only time will tell. what goes around comes around. let them win the state cup, regionals and even win nationals. Let them go win WC, what counts is being able to do it with class and dignity.
jy
So why are the two of you commenting on a MN State Cup game between competitive "traveling" teams? I'm sure there is a blog out there for recreational soccer. Maybe the "Y" has one?
BTW, I thought the holy grail was in a cave guarded by a killer rabbit with big sharp teeth that'll rip ya to shreds...
jy - you are correct the MYSA can't legislate moral or ethics but at times they try to. ;-)
great post - class and dignity - like former teammates that united on the field together through a great game that was bigger than the either one of us only to meet as coaches 25 years later and show our players how we respect each other and the game.
The soccer gods have a way of making sure time will tell
peace brother!
because my kid played 2 mta teams at the state cup
1 clearly better,
1 goal would have created a similar opportunity for
directors choice.
by the way , we found the grail
& it's shinier than state cup collected with bng
we put it back for others to find
guards were the dark clouds
lc
Rule seems clear that both MTA teams will need to be disqualified. Both coaches were involved and both are "team officials" (directors at MTA)
Page 28 of Championship Rules. Maybe MTA/MA should have checked into it:
"...If the Minnesota State Cup Director and Administrative Committee determines
that a particular action by a team or any of its players, coaches, team officials or spectators is deemed
unacceptable for any reason, the team may be disqualified, sanctioned, requested to play another
qualifying game against the next highest ranking team that would otherwise be eligible to advance, and/or
face forfeiture of one or more games. Examples of such action include, but are not limited to: suspected
forfeiture or otherwise determining the outcome of a game with the design or purpose of controlling the
advancement of any team from its own group or any other group, intentionally losing a game, or
unnecessarily running a score up for no purpose other than to humiliate opponents...."
So It appears the only options are to play the next highest ranking team that would be elligible to advance.
That could be one of two teams: The U-13 PL girls were second in that bracket.
The REV team has the next highest point total (9) and holds the tie breaker in the entire pool of 13 year olds.
Actually the MTA white team has (10) pts but the are not "eligible to move on" because they already played a legitimate semi-final game against EP.
The other option not addressed in the rules could be to just give EP the championship and let them advance to regions.
EP is scared to play MTA - they know they can't win so they want to be handed the title, which, incidentally is what they are all griping about in the first place.
does it literally say "daughters of hypocrites" in their little red jerseys?
There is no way to know if AK knew what Abboud was going to do.
Once the U12 players kicked the ball to U13 keeper it was too late. AK had zero control over the opposing teams coach and players
Abboud should be sanctioned by his club and MYSA.
Anything beyond that is opening up a real can of worms.
Rule 28 should be applied to both coaches. Both are directors of the same club and coaches for the same club. It was a thrown game so both coaches are guilty. Because it was a move to send the older group through a director to regionals. Both teams should be disqualified but as far as sanctions go. MA should have sanctions against him but AK should not. But both teams should be knocked out of regionals because of the thrown game so there both disqualified. Before you go jumping on me. Im not with any of the teams concerned but just reading the rules as there written.
6:17, there is some ambiguity in the rule. "the team may be disqualified."
The word "may" means it's not so cut and dry. If they used the word "must" or "shall" it would be more clear.
I beleive they use words like "may" because of what tomass said above "if they like you they go easy on you. If they dislike you, they do what they can to make sure you pay the price."
It will be interesting to see what happens. I suspect (not based on any inside knowledge, but timing) we should know today or tomorrow.
Unfortunately there are 28 very young girls that will be effected the rest of their youth soccer because of this choice that was made FOR THEM. Of course the girls want MA back, he has the title of being Super Coach and he gives them "nicknames" but he was also the person in charge and he manipulated the results.
lets translate this to the business world. say a manager in an office is accused of 'harassment' or 'cooking the books'. The governing entities evaluate the sanctions against the company based on their reactions to the offense. If they deem the reactions insufficent, they make seek broader penalties against the company itself. Things like 'do they have an overall culture, that supports the type of behavior in question' (think boys network). Again, if it were me and I was MTA, the punishment would be swift and severe lest there be any question at a broader organizational level as to what it tolerated (again, think business)
I'm not sure how these 12 and 13 year old girls can even get up in the morning as it would appear they have been scarred for life..... Reality is that 48 hours later it was a well behind them.
As is usually the case when it comes to youth sports, it is the parents who get all bent out of shape.
Don't interpret this as my belief that what occurred was in any way acceptble - as it was very wrong, but perspective people, perspective....
It is also not hard to identify who belongs to what club by their comments. Most of those who state that the U13 coach and team should not be impacted are most likely MTA or MTA-friendly. Those who want to disqualify both teams and impose stronger penalties are most likely non-MTA.
Kind of like politicians who break the law. If it is a democrat who does something wrong, the republicans want to lock them up for life. If it is a republican who breaks the law, the democrats want to throw away the key.
Tick Tock 811- and were the MTA U13's not handed an opportunity at the title themselves?
Hmm how strange the accusation when you don't know what EP parents are thinking. I think that is one of the arguments being used for the innocence of AK if I am not mistaken.
There is a way to know if AK knew what MA was going to do. It's called reason. The preponderance of evidence clearly supports knowledge by both parties. Those that call for concrete proof are just part of the problem as they try to muddy a black-and-white issue. There is right and there is wrong, and that's a problem in youth sports and society, in general. We've allowed people such as these folks to use their forum of choice to speak out of ignorance and intent to deceive. I've said it before on here and I'll say it again, ANYONE . . . who claims to have deniability as a defense for AK just isn't dealing with reality. Those of us in the coaching community who know both of them, knew this was a possibility long ago. Several even tried to dissuade them. There were MANY discussions among those who knew of the issue and their conversations. And how naive do you think the parents, kids, and MTA board are??? For the kids sake, there has to be punishment of ANY responsible individuals.
Isn't a tournament all about identifying the best players to advance? How about redirecting all the blogging energy into coaching your DDs. Perhaps then they might defeat one of those "evil plotting" MTA teams and prevent the situation from occurring again.
Seems like it's the same in every state. Kids play their hearts out, and “adults” detract from the game with political agendas and personal baggage. The only thing that should decide who advances is their RESULTS ON THE FIELD OF PLAY. The U12 coach was wrong to put club interests ahead of players’ hard-earned results. So which team has your state’s best players? (…and if you don’t like the answer, get outside and work with your DD a little more)
(Not an MTA-er, nor MTA-hater)
You must not have or been around 12 /13 year old girls, they did not get over it in 48 hours. You don't think that some of the 12's don't remind their friends on the 13's team that they "let" them win? You don't think the 13's are questioning themselves at this time even if they were to go to regionals and win? All of these girls will go on with their life, no doubt but don't think that incident hasn't changed some of these young players in the way they think about soccer.
As a ref, I think this has been interesting in that it's a situation that I've never encountered on the field. You can be sure it'll be discussed in education opportunities for refs. I think I know how I'd handle it now, but would love to hear from other refs. 1. When the first kick is taken and is obviously fraudulent - issue a red card for unsportsmanlike conduct, warn the coach that the next individual will receive the same as will the coach. 2. Immediately get additional State Cup officials to observe and record the events. 3. In the event that additional fraudulent kicks are taken, immediately halt the game and let the Tournament director and other MYSA officials decide at a later time.
I'm not certain that it would stop what occurred, but it would demonstrate that the rules were being broken and that it would not be tolerated or allowed to continue.
9:46 Yes, it was very unfortunate the U12's were put through that bad experience. Also, think of the U13's who dispite their skill and had work perhaps don't feel like they really won. How arrogant of the U12 coach to presume his team would have won a shootout. Anything can happen. That's why tournaments are held.
Hopefully the kids will move on quickly, and the adult will be held accountable.
9:49 I like the general concept, but you must know UB is a cautionable offense. Only after a second kicker could UB and a PI be declared, resulting in sending off.
My understanding is that the field marshal (an MTA parent) is who addressed the issue with the tournament staff. I commend him for this action as he clearly is identifyable and subject to internal critisism for blowing the whistle on the situation.
949 - you need to spend a little time considering what your role is as a referee.
IT IS NOT TO EDITORIALIZE, NOR IS IT TO MAKE UP RULES.
you cannot send a player off for unsporting behavior.
you have no authority to stop the game for this.
you should FACTUALLY document what occurred. leave your opinions out of it - write down what you saw and heard, nothing more nothing less.
you should not disrupt the proceeding to chase down MYSA officials, but if you have an extra assistant, you should send them. you should also realize that there is always an MYSA official in attendance at shoot outs, in the gazillion that I have seen, anyway.
try not to be an over-officious fool. i am sure you mean well, but please try to understand what your role is and is not.
10:00 must be an experienced referee abiding by teh Laws of the Game. 9:49 must be a poser, not a ref.
For parents out there, six sending off (“hard” red card) offenses are serious foul play, violent conduct, spitting at/on a person, denying a goal by deliberately handling the ball (not GK), denying obvious goal scoring opportunity by a foul punishable by direct FK or PK, abusive language or gestures. A “soft” red is a player being sent off for receiving a second caution (yellow) in the same match.
"9:49 I like the general concept, but you must know UB is a cautionable offense. Only after a second kicker could UB and a PI be declared, resulting in sending off."
no dip$hit, even persistent infringement does not jump the penalty for unsporting behavior to an expulsion. it is still only a caution, so only a player who had already been booked could have justly been sent off for this.
i hope this does become a discussion in referee classes. too many who just try to make stuff up
10:00 is absolutely right. Refs do not make up rules or determine the outcome of a game. They enforce the Laws, record the match result, and report incident in the match.
9:57, I disagree . . . you can go right to sending off as part of your discretionary rights under the laws. There are many cautionable offenses that can/should result in a sending-off if the flagracy merits. I think this particularly applies to UB. Just this weekend at NSC a ref, I believe rightly, went straight to red for UB in a game prior to one of mine.
10:05 Respectfully check with your mentor or educator at your next recert clinic. PI certainly can apply to a persistent pattern of behavior by a TEAM. The classic example is sending a different player in each time to "take out" the opponent's star striker.
That's the great thing about reffing, you can learn something new every match.
10:08 here again, I'll correct myself. He didn't go right to red, but might as well have. He issued a UB yellow folowed by another immediate yellow for dissent.
10:05 To be sure it's clear, the second kickers first caution would have been UB for intentionally missing the second kick. The player's second caution would be PI for the team's pattern of behavior.
Frankly, I think sending off would be quite a stretch. Especially for U13. Better to report the result and let the governing body deal with it. Otherwise, what other coaching decisions should refs get intangled with? Probably none.
hey guys- why all the talk about the cards?
game management is more essential here.
After the first fraudulent PK - stop the activities and conference with the two head coaches away from the activities and ask a simple question
"what the hell is going on here?"
that is all the action that would have been required. Whether it continued or not, report what occurred after that. The cards are meaningless at this point in the game
Not sure that the age of the players involved has anything to do with how one should rule, but I do agree in letting it play out and turning it over to the governing body. In favor of the cautions, reds - no, halting the game - emphatically no (I've only ever used that when all the carded adults have been excused from the field).
1014 - that goes to the making up of rules - you will punish the same offense twice? where in the lotg does it tell you that is the right move to make?
the move for referees is to document everything that occurs, FACTUALLY, WITHOUT OPINION.
Just like for coaches, referees should consider some of the crazy circumstances that they might encounter, and what their instinctive response would be. Then, they should take a step back, and figure out what the rules say to do, and what their philosophy tells them to do.
WITCHES!!! WITCHES!!! BURN 'EM BURN 'EM!
i bet if you look real close you'll see a small wart on both MA & AK's noses (or at least one painted on by a non-MTA parent).
1031, obviously not a ref . . . there are opinions in EVERY game. Was it a dive or not . . . what's unsportsmanlike to one isn't to another . . . how long does advantage need to be maintained before you return to the spot of a foul . . . If there was no opinion, there'd never be controversy and the history of soccer is full of controversy. What you think is a foul at U13C3 is tolerated at other levels. Plus you just validated 1014 by telling him to do what his 'philosophy' tell him to do.
tomass,
To be respectful of the Laws of the Game regarding dissent and to be mindful of the pc-police, I think the simpler question would be:
"What is going on here?"
Authority figures should lead by example.
26/5/09 9:40 AM
Are you a fool or what? A decision was made by MA and he has taken responsibility for it. I can only presume that folks knew as MA has stated, but in the end this was not an orchestrated event by MA and AK to go through 90 minutes of girls playing their hearts out to only tie. Up until the decision by MA, both MA, AK and the players were playing to win. We would not have this separate forum for spewing of hangings if the game ended in regulation or overtime. Part of the problem is that the parties that really matter are the kids (U12/U13 girls), the coaches and now the governing bodies. Your opinion albeit it an opinion is rhetoric pushing your personal agenda.
1040 - of course there are opinions of referees in every match. However, when documenting misconduct and the sort, the best documentation of events is focused on fact, not opinion.
those in charge of events do not want to know what the referee thinks the reason is that a kid/coach/fan did something that falls under misconduct, they want a clear account of what occurred.
It is OK for the referee to judge that the shooters clearly rolled the ball slowly to the goalkeeper, but it is not correct for him to presume why this action occurred.
If the referee heard the coach say something to his player, or witnessed a quiet conversation between the shooter and coach, it is correct to report this. It is not correct to guess what the discussion was about, unless the referee heard it clearly.
hope that makes sense
in the mysa conference room , during the time when the games would have been played,the coach is entertained by the suspended teams mothers.
such a possibility could prevent many forms of misguided directing.
lc
wrong 1045 . . . if a hypothetical is discussed and a solution arrived at, and then it does actually occur, that's premeditation. If X & Y happen, we'll do Z. Clear cut. Did they want it to happen, of course not, but that's how it played out and how it was discussed prior. You don't get to say that it wasn't planned if you cover it as a possible scenario.
lc, That was hillarious :-)
Is there really any effective officiating remedy when a coach blatantly breaks the Sportsmanship rules? None of the ideas discussed would change the W/L outcome of the match, so why caution any players? Seems like the person who said “report the facts in the game report” had the simplest and best answer. Might be worth a note to Dean Barton at MNSRC. Seems like the governing body over coaches (MYSA) should be dealing with it once reported.
It's a shame, lc can't be an illustator on here. As a editorial cartoon, the picture in my mind had me laughing hard!! Nice to see some levity.
Actually a note to Adolfo would be good too. As opinionated as he can be about a wide range of soccer issues, I've always found his view on reffing issues to be very well thought out and grounded.
1107 - that is exactly the point. The referees are there to enforce the rules of the contest. This includes factually reporting anything that they believe is unusual.
Yes, that means that it is unusual in the referee's opinion, but they must report the facts about what they find unusual.
from that point on, the referee has no involvement, unless called upon by the sanctioning body.
just a wee bit of an axe to grind lc....
lc doth protest too much, methinks.
I never think, it hurts too much to do so.
Better just to blurt it out.
My referee solution was the best, just admit it.
That might be true. The officiating ideas were interesting to read. I am a relatively inexperienced ref, and eager to learn. I will volunteer to email Adolfo and Dean after MYSA has decided on the matter. For the time being, I hesitate to pull either of them into what seems to be a politically charged discussion.
as opposed to 11:16....when in doubt (or lacking anything intelligent or clever to say) insult.
Heres my prediction, the weekend will come and the games will be played and the rest of the MA and AK will go unanswered. Nothing will be done and life goes on. MA will do what he does best develop players then hand them off to someone else when the time is right and the next upcoming team comes up through the ranks. He formed the Woodbury U17 back when he was in Woodbury, then he formed U15 Blue and not hes one the U12 and will form that team until the time comes to hand that team over. Some coaches are great with younger kids others are great with the older ones. But there comes a time when we as parents just need to drop things and let them be.
1148. Not sure that's possible with rule violations occurring. Expect MYSA/USYSA to have a say in here somewhere before the games are played this weekend. I think with the holiday, there has been a delay. It would be nice if it were sooner than now, but I'm sure there was much gathering of information that had to take place first.
For all who keep quoting rule 28. It applies to group play. For the instance where a team throws a game to allow a team to advance out of group instead of a different team in the group! NOT THEMSELVES! The injured party here is the MTA U12's, and they are already out. No other team was prevented from advancing because of what they did but themselves.
Hey! This ain't rocket science. What a bunch of boobs. This can be decided in five minutes.
Tick-Tock 1226 - the injured party is the game of soccer.
A team was allowed to advance that did not actually earn the right to do so. It was given to them.
slow down on the Kool Aid - it's all good ;-)
That is unfortunate, as we will never know who would have won in real sportsmanlike PKs. So whoever thinks they are the best team, let them play for it. That's why we hold tournaments right? To find out who's the best, and of course give the politically inclined something to blog about?
...or certainly decided in 70-90 minutes. Let the player play, the refs officiate, and find two coaches who will actually coach.
Amen, tomASS. The game is way bigger than a coach, team, club, or even a state assn. This was a slap at the game.
The game is way bigger than this State Cup folly. If the game was injured, it healed quickly. ManU-Barca will still be played on Wednesday.
The injured party is MA's reputation and the U12 MTA girls that don't get to play in the U13 State Cup final. Oh well. MA will survive. The U12 girls will likely be there next year.
Agreed. This was a slap at the game. There should be strong sanctions for the offending coach. But don't go overboard and compound the problem.
Bottom line is AK's team did nothing wrong and had zero control over the opposing team.
AK's kids made their kicks. His keeper made the saves. AK had no control over the other team's shooters.
This could get very ugly if a decision is made to punish the team that did nothing wrong.
Unless there's evidence that he was complicit, then AK, and probably his team, must suffer some consequences too.
Here's an idea . . . ban all adults from soccer. Call it the Lord of the Flies League!
AK didn't have to agree with anything for the opposing team to make decision to pass the ball to the GK.
His GK made the saves. His kids made their shots.
What did you expect AK to do?
Duh, the right thing and if you can't figure that out, you've got as many problems as he does. Don't agree to it, and certainly don't agree to it within earshot of a witness (yes, there are witnesses to the conversation held at the end of OT).
OK 2:32 if you are 100% positive give names!!
2:32,
AK agreed to it?
How and when did that happen?
What if he didn't agree to it and yet Abboud did it anyway?
Think about it.
Why would I want to do that to them? They just answered questions and/or came forward. I'm sure it'll come out eventually.
And the plot thickens. This could really be a Movie! Mark, make it a movie, Road to regionals, how to set the stage for added drama.
So you are getting this second hand, still not proof.
What you're really asking is why should we believe someone with no vested interested in the game, vs two blokes that had an obvious reason (however screwy) to collude? You're not smarter than a 5th grader if you can't decide this one.
How do we know any anon, including me, has no vested interest on this subject? We have already seen that attacks on U12/U13 girls are not off limits by the bloggers here. Do I think blogger would lie to make others look bad --- you bet.
So, if you have proof lets have it.
yeah, why should it be believed that someone, with no ties to MTA, would say something that would hang two MTA coaches?
really?
and octopuses have 8 hands. still not proof but great fodder for us to watch AK be defended.
if the second hand glove does not fit you must acquit
if they're forced to play out this humiliating year ,
they should at least be allowed to wear black sox.
lc
I hope you like crow, cause you're going to be eating alot of it. IMS reports that the state cup committee already met last week. (Check with one of them)
and a scarlet letter!
their untimely publication has encouraged
this idle speculation
Why won't the MTA board do something proactively to deflect some of this from them as an organization? That seems like just a prudent thing to do.
AK had no need to be a part of this. Why would their need to be collusion?
The other team controlled what would happen in the shoot out, not his team.
It's the club directors who are responsible for creating an atmosphere that would allow something like this to happen. Wouldn't surprise me if this type of situation wasn't discussed at the start of the season. Sooner or later somebody with first hand knowledge will fess up.
1226 is exactly right. Rule 28 does not apply here as the team that was prevented from advancing was the team that violated the rules. Well stated.
It's so funny how the same person comes to AK's defense every 5 posts or so. It's the same tired argument, there's no proff he knew, there was nothing he could do, poor AK.
I believe he and his team should face action. He knew and sat on his hands, there's no other way to look at it.
It is interesting to me that so many comments are here and on the girls state cup story, but only 25% the number of comments on the boy's state cup story.
Add to that the number of people who are commenting about "the game" being insulted in this incident, and it makes me more curious.
Most of you here are not fans of the game; you are fans of your daughter's activity, and bigger fans of spouting off. I truly hope many of you become fans of the game, but after watching games at NSC Cup this weekend, my confidence in that is shaken.
The typical "Kid's Activity Fan" is more likely to cheer punishment to the other team than they are to recognize quality play by their opponent. This same person is also likely to hold the belief, to some degree, that "that other team" does something that is unfair - recruiting, training advantage, cheat in games, plays dirty, fill in your own blank.
This KAF is more likely to cheer a crunching tackle (getting them back) than they are an attempt (failed or succesful) at clever play by their own team. The KAF also, very quietly, laments that kid who never passes the ball on their own team, sometimes in quite a negative fashion. How negative? It is usually in direct proportion to the difference in playing time between the ball hog kid and the KAFs kid.
The KAF is also prone to instigating conflict with the opposing parents, and sometimes with the opposing players, often with the theme of "they did something first" to justify.
I wonder how many of you will turn on a soccer match on TV, or will ever be seen with any regularity at a soccer match after your offspring quit playing. Actually, I don't wonder; I am pretty sure about how this works out.
Did it ever occur to you that a big part of this experience can include the parents and kids on the most hated of rivals?
Competition is great. I am glad that my kids get the opportunity to compete, one of them at a decent level. I used to cringe when I heard people like many on this blog act so foolishly at the fields, but not anymore.
Now I am thankful for them, and the opportunity they give me to discuss public lunacy with my children.
I THINK, this is all a distraction so everyone forgets about the controversy with the U14 team.
6:31pm.
come down off your soap box. cheating is cheating. The game was not decided fairly. 1 team threw the game so the other may advance. Just happens both teams are from the same club with an agenda. The agenda being getting the older, arguably better team to advance for better club promotion.
period end of story. Yes, the girls were victims of their own club. Yes, the club manipulated the tournamnet. Yes, the club broke the rules and cheated. Yes, both MTA teams need to be justly disqaulified and banned from state cup for 1 year.
Too bad the "KAF's" get this better than you do. Maybe you are too dizzy from being up so high on your horse.
*****
WOW 7:05pm. Well said.
705 - I should have posted this in the girls state cup story, not here, it is not specifically about the state cup incident at U13. Rather, it is a comment about the overall types of comments on this blog, at the fields, and at water coolers and across cubicles all over the twin cities.
Not club specific, not pro or against any particular club, team or coach. Certainly not from a high horse, and certainly intended to neither convict nor claim innocence for anyone.
Pretty easy to get on here and make accusations about others and not have to answer for them, isn't it. I made my comment because it is meant to ask everyone to think about where they come from when they make decisions about how they are going to behave here or at the soccer field. I have been saddened by the comments I have heard come from parents/fans on the side of state cup games this year, and when I consider those as well as the drivel that is contained in most posts at this site, I am bothered.
I realize that I can't speak loudly enough to get through the "red mist" that encompasses so many when they start in on their arch enemy, whichever club or team that might be. I am hoping that some will read what I wrote, and, even if they never become a true soccer fan, will at least consider becoming pleasant human beings while on the sideline of their kid's activities.
btw, I am a KAF with many of my kids' activities, too. That tag is not a knock; rather, it is my description of most whom others might think of as soccer fans.
you still have not defended your comments. You only wrote your "KAF" comments based on the blogs regarding this "incident". The incident in question, in it's nature, involves 1 club, it's 2 teams and how the club ruined this tournamnet. How can you say "eyes covered in red mist". It happened. Yes the coach apologized. Sorry don't feed the bulldog.
If all anyone involved in Mn soccer gets is a great big "I'm sorry". What keeps other teams from doing this again ?
There are standards of conduct and ramifications that must be adhered to.
Don't worry, this is all just blog filibuster material as nothing will happen.
Too bad, just wait for the next time it happens.
Too bad the ''red mist'' in your eyes can't see this for it's simplicity. They threw the game, against the rules of the tournament. How can you argue that ?
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